[Bldg-sim] Modeling zones that are conditioned but not controlled

Bishop, Bill bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com
Fri Feb 23 08:29:57 PST 2018


Christopher,
I agree with Jim.
I typically model all conditioned spaces including semiheated spaces with heating and cooling thermostat schedules, except for heating-only zones that meet the criteria for Systems 9/10 in Appendix G, for which I leave the cooling thermostat schedule undefined. I may enter relaxed design conditions for zones that aren’t intended to have tight temperature control (using DESIGN-COOL-T and DESIGN-HEAT-T in DOE-2/eQUEST), and use correspondingly relaxed thermostat schedules for those zones. If there are unmet hours in the proposed design that I can’t address by relaxing the thermostat schedules even further, than I might leave the heating and/or cooling thermostat schedules undefined to represent floating with no thermostat control (which results in no reported unmet loads to have to explain). I keep all design conditions and thermostat schedules identical in the baseline as required by Appendix G.
Regards,
~Bill

William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP | Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP
Senior Energy Engineer

[cid:image001.jpg at 01D3AC99.C5630110]  [cid:image010.jpg at 01D3AC99.C5630110]



134 South Fitzhugh Street                 Rochester, NY 14608

T: (585) 698-1956                        F: (585) 325-6005

bbishop at pathfinder-ea.com<mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com>             www.pathfinder-ea.com<http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/>

[http://png-5.findicons.com/files/icons/977/rrze/720/globe.png]Carbon Fee and Dividend - simple, effective, and market-based.


From: Bldg-sim [mailto:bldg-sim-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Jones, Christopher via Bldg-sim
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 11:21 AM
To: Jim Dirkes <jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modeling zones that are conditioned but not controlled

Thanks Jim,
Your suggested approaches are in line with how I have been handing the issue.


Christopher R. Jones, P.Eng.
Technical Specialist
Sustainability & Energy

[cid:image009.png at 01D3AC99.6D906630]
T +1 416-644-0252

2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4 Canada
wsp.com


Please consider the environment before printing...


From: Jim Dirkes [mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com]
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 11:18 AM
To: Jones, Christopher <Christopher.r.Jones at wsp.com<mailto:Christopher.r.Jones at wsp.com>>
Cc: bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: Re: [Bldg-sim] Modeling zones that are conditioned but not controlled

My opinion:
If there is no thermostat, the design essentially says that a wide temperature variation is acceptable. You might consider arguing that those zones cannot have unmet load hours because the design does not attempt to control temperature.

For your own peace of mind (if your software allows it), you might also report hourly temperatures in the zone to confirm that temps don't go crazy unexpectedly during occupied hours.


On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Jones, Christopher via Bldg-sim <bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:bldg-sim at lists.onebuilding.org>> wrote:
I am wondering what others do for building zones that are conditioned but have no direct HVAC control. For example, a typical school will have a DOAS with perimeter radiation in exterior zones. There will be temperature and CO2 DCV in these occupied zones. The corridor will have transfer air and may have a couple of small supply diffusers from the DOAS but there is no thermostat to control the temperature in that corridor.

If there is no thermostat, there is no setpoint so how does one determine if the corridor has unmet loads? How would one model the corridor zone in the baseline case for Appendix G?


Christopher R. Jones, P.Eng.
Technical Specialist
Sustainability & Energy

[cid:image009.png at 01D3AC99.6D906630]
T +1 416-644-0252<tel:(416)%20644-0252>

2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300
Toronto, ON M4P 1E4 Canada
wsp.com<http://wsp.com>


Please consider the environment before printing...



________________________________


NOTICE: This communication and any attachments ("this message") may contain information which is privileged, confidential, proprietary or otherwise subject to restricted disclosure under applicable law. This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorized use, disclosure, viewing, copying, alteration, dissemination or distribution of, or reliance on, this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, or you are not an authorized or intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, delete this message and all copies from your e-mail system and destroy any printed copies. You are receiving this communication because you are listed as a current WSP contact. Should you have any questions regarding WSP's electronic communications policy, please consult our Anti-Spam Commitment at www.wsp.com/casl<http://www.wsp.com/casl>. For any concern or if you believe you should not be receiving this message, please forward this message to caslcompliance at wsp.com<mailto:caslcompliance at wsp.com> so that we can promptly address your request. Note that not all messages sent by WSP qualify as commercial electronic messages.

AVIS : Ce message, incluant tout fichier l'accompagnant (« le message »), peut contenir des renseignements ou de l'information privilégiés, confidentiels, propriétaires ou à divulgation restreinte en vertu de la loi. Ce message est destiné à l'usage exclusif du/des destinataire(s) voulu(s). Toute utilisation non permise, divulgation, lecture, reproduction, modification, diffusion ou distribution est interdite. Si vous avez reçu ce message par erreur, ou que vous n'êtes pas un destinataire autorisé ou voulu, veuillez en aviser l'expéditeur immédiatement et détruire le message et toute copie électronique ou imprimée. Vous recevez cette communication car vous faites partie des contacts de WSP. Si vous avez des questions concernant la politique de communications électroniques de WSP, veuillez consulter notre Engagement anti-pourriel au www.wsp.com/lcap<http://www.wsp.com/lcap>. Pour toute question ou si vous croyez que vous ne devriez pas recevoir ce message, prière de le transférer au conformitelcap at wsp.com<mailto:conformitelcap at wsp.com> afin que nous puissions rapidement traiter votre demande. Notez que ce ne sont pas tous les messages transmis par WSP qui constituent des messages electroniques commerciaux.



-LAEmHhHzdJzBlTWfa4Hgs7pbKl

_______________________________________________
Bldg-sim mailing list
http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list send  a blank message to BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG<mailto:BLDG-SIM-UNSUBSCRIBE at ONEBUILDING.ORG>



--
James V Dirkes II, CEO / President
The Building Performance Team Inc.
1631 Acacia Dr, Grand Rapids, MI 49504

(alphabet soup of efforts for greater understanding: PE, BEMP, BCxP, LEED AP)

Direct / Mobile: 616.450.8653
jim at buildingperformanceteam.com<mailto:jim at buildingperformanceteam.com>

Website <http://buildingperformanceteam.com> l  LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-dirkes/7/444/413>

Coffee conversation:

The first idea is the worst, but it is the most important because it starts discussion and becomes the building block for other ideas.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20180223/c6e8655f/attachment-0002.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image009.png
Type: image/png
Size: 25844 bytes
Desc: image009.png
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20180223/c6e8655f/attachment-0004.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1517 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20180223/c6e8655f/attachment-0004.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image010.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1647 bytes
Desc: image010.jpg
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20180223/c6e8655f/attachment-0005.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image011.png
Type: image/png
Size: 3859 bytes
Desc: image011.png
URL: <http://lists.onebuilding.org/pipermail/bldg-sim-onebuilding.org/attachments/20180223/c6e8655f/attachment-0005.png>


More information about the Bldg-sim mailing list