[Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

[Sami, Vikram]

Interesting - because sometimes by trying to be too accurate you end up being less so. Tim - in your image, the roof surface overhangs on all side it looks like 2 feet). In reality the solar heat gain on those two feet are not really transmitted to the zone. In your eQUEST model it will be.


It looks like its a plenum zone, so the impact is probably minimal, but its something to watch out for.


Now let's beat this thing a little more and see if it runs....



[cid:image001.jpg at 01CB28E8.94CFA130]


Vikram Sami, LEED AP
Sustainable Design Analyst
1382 Peachtree St. NE, Atlanta, GA 30309
t: 404-443-7462    f: 404.892.5823       e: vikram.sami at perkinswill.com   www.perkinswill.com<http://www.perkinswill.com/>
Perkins+Will.  Ideas + buildings that honor the broader goals of society


From: tim [mailto:tim.jgrier at fuse.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:13 PM
To: 'Bishop, Bill'; Sami, Vikram
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

Yep, I just gave up and rounded off distances and settled for a simplified roof.  After all, there are even slight discrepancies between masonry coursing dimensions & fractional feet.  Besides that, ASHRAE 90.1 G even says this is not an attempt to model actual energy usage, but rather to compare against the more widely used, typical systems (baseline).

Attached is an image of the model that equest generated after my compromises - took about 10 minutes in the wizard - no dd editing.

I believe you with the vertices & the text file editing an all, but if the point isn't even to model the "actual" energy usage, then I say why bother?  I can make a pretty accurate looking model in revit or sketchup or drawing by hand for that matter if you just want to look at it, but I'm thinking of equest as more of a tool just to get close enough to real world to get the numbers needed to find the percent improvement over the baseline and make the planet will be a better place to live.

Even equest tutorials say this is "SIMULATION"

tim


From: Bishop, Bill [mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:48 PM
To: tim; Sami, Vikram
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

Tim,
Thanks. Yes, eQuest. You do as much as you can in the Wizard. I find I often have to modify roof surfaces in DD edit mode. I will usually create a new roof polygon by copying the polygon of a trouble roof surface, change the coordinates in the .inp file (unless it is a simple rectangle - I find the program is glitchy when you try to modify coordinates in a spreadsheet in DD edit mode) and save it, then reopen the eQuest model and assign the new roof polygon to the roof surface. Lather, rinse, repeat. Save often.

Vikram,
"Couldn't help notice - you seem to have the roof modeled as a wall (vertex input) rather than a roof (top of space). Is it simpler to do it that way?"
Modeling a sloped roof is a judgment call. You have to decide if the added complexity will give you a significantly better model, or if the visual "wow" factor is worth it for impressing your clients. The wizard does a decent job at sloped roofs for simple building geometries. As far as walls vs. roofs, it seems to me that eQuest models them the same, except for the angle. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.) After all, you add both walls and roofs in DD edit mode by creating a new "Exterior Wall". If the building geometry is such that you can simply select "top" for the surface location (such as the one roof surface on the first floor of my example), then of course that is easier.

Bill

________________________________
From: tim [mailto:tim.jgrier at fuse.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:18 PM
To: Bishop, Bill
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

Wow Bill - that is cool - thanks for that.  Not sure I will be that adept after my 7000 square foot project, but it's good to know the capabilities.  This building was generated in equest?  I did find where you can change the pitch of the roof by degrees!

I have never use revit with equest btw - I was just reacting bitterly to my first go at trying to use that interface.  I tried to customize zones and came up with some crazy thing that looked like a tree house for monkeys.

Thanks for helping me believe.

Tim




From: Bishop, Bill [mailto:wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:00 PM
To: tim
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: RE: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

Tim,

Yes, you can do complex roofs if you work at it and nobody reminds you that you're working on a deadline. (See attached.) Ditto Carol's Revit comment and Lan's simpler-is-better-to-a-point advice.

Regards,
Bill

William Bishop, PE, BEMP, LEED(r) AP | Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP
Mechanical Engineer

134 South Fitzhugh Street
Rochester, NY 14608
T: (585) 325-6004 Ext. 114
F: (585) 325-6005
wbishop at pathfinder-ea.com
www.pathfinder-ea.com
P Sustainability - less is more.
________________________________
From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org] On Behalf Of Li, Lan
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 1:42 PM
To: tim; Carol Gardner
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

Tim,

I think eQuest is an energy modeling program and we are more concerned in BTU/ton terms - or $$ at the end. If the roof was built somewhat differently by modeler as it was shown on architectural drawings, my question is only how much it will affect the energy usage. If it is a minor, I won't drive myself crazy to make them same.  If you read Ashare 90-1, simplify building geometry for energy simulation purpose is allowed. Also when we model a building, we can have tons of inputs and lots of assumptions are made either by us or by the program itself, I think majority of them can have a bigger impact on our goal than build a prefect roof/building shell. I might be one of the lazy modelers. Hope you can enjoy eQuest a little bit more.

Thanks!

Lan

Lan Li, PE
Mechanical Engineer
Scheeser Buckley Mayfield LLC
1540 Corporate Woods Parkway
Uniontown, OH 44685
Phone: (330) 896-4664 ext. 123
Cell: (330) 904-6292
Fax: (330) 896-9180
lli at sbmce.com<mailto:lli at sbmce.com>
www.sbmce.com<http://www.sbmce.com/>

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________________________________
From: tim [mailto:tim.jgrier at fuse.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 1:29 PM
To: 'Carol Gardner'
Cc: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

If you're complimenting me on my observation, my awareness must be at an all-time high today.

How about a complex roof shape like the one attached?  Notice ridge lines don't match and there is a gable at the porch end as well as the building end.

Can equest do that too?  As long as one would put in the training time of course...

Tim


From: Carol Gardner [mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 1:01 PM
To: tim
Cc: Omar Katanani; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

Well, at least your powers of observation aren't suffering.

Yes, you can model individual ceiling heights per room. You can do almost anything once you take the time to learn how. What are the specifics of what you want to do: model a room with two different ceiling heights or model a bunch of rooms with one height and a bunch with another height? A picture would be great if ya have one.
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 9:56 AM, tim <tim.jgrier at fuse.net<mailto:tim.jgrier at fuse.net>> wrote:
Wow - I think I struck a nerve.

On a related note...
Does equest have a way to model individual ceiling heights per room?

Thanks,
Tim


From: Carol Gardner [mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com<mailto:cmg750 at gmail.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 12:43 PM
To: tim
Cc: Omar Katanani; equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>

Subject: Re: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry

I have got to protest this one, sorry Tim.

Buying a Revit license to be able to accurately model geometry in eQUEST is, to be blunt, crazy. It's really pretty easy to revise your geometry and if you can't do that using one of the 3 methods I provided earlier, you need to figure out how to train yourself better or leave the field. It's not just a matter of being able to use eQUEST at this point, it's a matter of being able to generate an accurate model using any tool. Being able to import CAD or Revit data into energy models is a recent development. Frankly, I question it's utility, especially if people now think they have to use it or they can't model a building. Friendly front ends like eQUEST, DesignBuilder, etc., are great but you need to know how a building operates and how the systems work or it's just GIGO.

Carol
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 9:29 AM, tim <tim.jgrier at fuse.net<mailto:tim.jgrier at fuse.net>> wrote:
Omar
I haven't had much luck with customizing spaces either.
I think there is a way to import a revit model file into equest.  If I needed complicated zones & spatial geometry, I would probably consider a revit license, but with that come's more money ($4-$6k for 1 standalone license) and possibly more training, but might save a whole lot of headache.

Seems like equest is more of an energy modeler than an accurate building modeler.

tim



From: equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org> [mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users-bounces at lists.onebuilding.org>] On Behalf Of Omar Katanani
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 10:46 AM
To: equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org<mailto:equest-users at lists.onebuilding.org>
Subject: [Equest-users] Modifying Geometry



Dear all,

Once again, another problem!

I have several spaces which were geometrically modified in the design. For example, a room that was split into two different ones; with each room being a different hvac zone. How can I possibly split a room into two zones "1" and "2"? Shall I modify the geometry of the old zone to be that of zone "1", and then add another zone "2" from scratch? If this is what should be done, how can I do this accurately?

Attached is the polygon view of one of my floors. When you look at them in 2-D or 3-D views, the building seems perfect in shape. Notice the rectangle to the left of the picture! This is actually a zone that lies inside the building. But it appears like this in polygon view. I think it is some problem of coordinate references or so!
So when I need to modify the geometry according to coordinates of vertices, I'm suffering!

Many thanks!
Omar

___________________________

Omar Katanani
Sustainable Design Engineer
Email: omar at ecoconsulting.net<mailto:omar at ecoconsulting.net>


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Carol Gardner PE



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