<html><body>
<p>Thank you for your reply. <br>
<br>
I'll definetely have to try importing dxf-files again. <br>
<br>
About Microflo, when I used it a couple of years ago it couldnt model room chillers very good (I usually model them as a box of air removing heat), but you couldnt create this empty box.<br>
Furthermore I got the feeling that solar radiation wasnt modelled correctly, I think it was modelled as a very hot surface.<br>
Even more concerning was the boundry value import from apachesim which sets the boundry values (temperatures) on the inside of the building elements. Therefore you cant get reliable results (for example) when you model cold air running down a window in the winter because the change in heat transfer coefficient due to the turbulent air flow close to the window wont affect the window surface. The ideal would be to set the temperature on the outside of the building element.<br>
Or has this changed in the last years? <br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
E r i k E r i k s s o n <br>
<br>
Energy specialist and project manager<br>
________________________________<br>
White project & environmental management<br>
<br>
Box 4700<br>
116 92 STOCKHOLM<br>
Phone: +46(0)8-402 26 77<br>
Fax: +46 (0)8-402 25 10<br>
Visit: Östgötagatan 100<br>
<a href="http://www.white.se">http://www.white.se</a><br>
<br>
We are certified according to ISO 9000 and 14 001<br>
<br>
<img width="16" height="16" src="cid:0__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt="Inactive hide details for "Paul Carey" ---2009-03-09 18:08:48---A couple of things to add to this:"><font color="#424282">"Paul Carey" ---2009-03-09 18:08:48---A couple of things to add to this:</font><br>
<br>
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<font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">From:</font></td><td width="100%"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:1__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt=""><br>
<font size="2">"Paul Carey" <paul@zed-uk.com></font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><img width="96" height="1" src="cid:1__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt=""><br>
<font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">To:</font></td><td width="100%"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:1__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt=""><br>
<font size="2">"'SINGH Manjinder'" <Manjinder.SINGH@projectservices.qld.gov.au>, "'Erik Eriksson'" <erik.eriksson@white.se></font></td></tr>
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<font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Cc:</font></td><td width="100%" valign="middle"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:1__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt=""><br>
<font size="2"><virtual-sim@lists.onebuilding.org></font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><img width="96" height="1" src="cid:1__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt=""><br>
<font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Date:</font></td><td width="100%"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:1__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt=""><br>
<font size="2">2009-03-09 18:08</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="1%"><img width="96" height="1" src="cid:1__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt=""><br>
<font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Subject:</font></td><td width="100%"><img width="1" height="1" src="cid:1__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" border="0" alt=""><br>
<font size="2">RE: [Virtual-sim] Issues and dxf?</font></td></tr>
</table>
<hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade style="color:#8091A5; "><br>
<br>
<br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">A couple of things to add to this:</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Here are some notes for dxf use:</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Explode all blocks – this allows text to come into VE properly</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Delete all unnecessary layers and purge the drawing</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Copy to new drawing as a block and paste/set origin at 0,0 otherwise you’ll end up with graphics issues when the origin is a long way from 0,0.</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">You can also draw a single line on a new layer and then just use that layer to create the model – this should allow construct-dxf to work.</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">For Microflo use:</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Keep it simple.</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Try not to play with the grid too much as although in theory this should be better, invariably it makes things worse.</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Try and use a grid and snap to it to set the model up in the first place so you don’t end up with lots of small slithers of grid.</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">If it’s a complicated project, it probably needs a complicated CFD tool.</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Regards</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Paul</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font>
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<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">SK15 3AD</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="211"><font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">T: 0161 3386200</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">F: 0161 3031281</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">M: 0789 4098012</font></td><td width="211"><font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">E: paul@zed-uk.com</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">W: </font><font size="4" color="#004080" face="Calibri">www.zed-uk.com</font><br>
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<b><font size="4" face="Tahoma">From:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> virtual-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [</font><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><a href="mailto:virtual-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:virtual-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a></font><font size="4" face="Tahoma">] </font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma">On Behalf Of </font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma">SINGH Manjinder</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Sent:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> 08 March 2009 22:52</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
To:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Erik Eriksson</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Cc:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> virtual-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Subject:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Re: [Virtual-sim] Issues and dxf?</font><br>
<font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial">Hi Erik</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial">There are couple of suggestions while using the Microflo module of IES.</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial"> </font>
<ul>1. <font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial">While importing the dxf file into IES, the dxf file should be clear, I mean to say to be a single line file as to avoid picking the points close to one another.</font><br>
2. <font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial">Try to use the grid for the point selection not the end point. As while using the program you can find a difference that while picking up a end point there could be a small variation in the point which will result in a very narrow grid and which will increase the no. of cells and that could led to a problem of the memory and also the convergence will not be achieved and end up with inappropriate results.</font><br>
3. <font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial">IES is simple to use for CFD as it works very well if we have a Maximum aspect ratio <10:1</font><br>
4. <font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial">IES is having a problem, it can’t do the internal and external simulation at one instance (in a single go), where as the programs like Phoenics (CHAM software) can do it in one go.</font></ul>
<font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial"> </font><br>
<font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial">May be these points help you in achieving the right results.</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial">Regards</font><br>
<b><font size="4" color="#008000" face="Verdana">Manjinder Singh</font></b><br>
<b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"> </font></b><br>
<b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana">Mechanical Engineer | Professional Services Portfolio | Project Services</font></b><br>
<font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana">-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana">Level 5B 80 George Street,</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana">Brisbane, Queensland 4000</font><br>
<font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana">T: (07) 3227 8064 | F: (07) 3224 6151</font><br>
<b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana">E:</font></b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"> </font><a href="mailto:Manjinder.Singh@projectservices.qld.gov.au"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Manjinder.Singh@projectservices.qld.gov.au</font></u></a><b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"> | Web:</font></b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"> </font><a href="http://www.projectservices.qld.gov.au/"><u><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana">www.projectservices.qld.gov.au</font></u></a><br>
<b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"> </font></b><br>
<font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial"> </font><div align="center"><hr width="100%" size="2" align="center"></div><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma">From:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Erik Eriksson [</font><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><a href="mailto:erik.eriksson@white.se">mailto:erik.eriksson@white.se</a></font><font size="4" face="Tahoma">] </font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Sent:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Tuesday, 3 March 2009 6:53 PM</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
To:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> SINGH Manjinder</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Cc:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Nouman; virtual-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Subject:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> RE: [Virtual-sim] Issues and dxf?</font><br>
<font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Hi Manjinder,<br>
<br>
I tested it for a couple of years ago and my experience was that it was very easy to use. That is normally a good thing, but when it comes to CFD programs they tend to be very complicated and I just figured that MicroFlo therefore couldnt be that accurate in its results. <br>
<br>
We are looking into it again and I think its brilliant that its so simple, but the results need to be accurate (obviously). <br>
Have you found the accuracy in the results doubtful?<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
E r i k E r i k s s o n <br>
<br>
Energy specialist and project manager<br>
________________________________<br>
White project & environmental management<br>
<br>
Box 4700<br>
116 92 STOCKHOLM<br>
Phone: +46(0)8-402 26 77<br>
Fax: +46 (0)8-402 25 10<br>
Visit: Östgötagatan 100</font><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></u><a href="http://www.white.se/"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">http://www.white.se</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
We are certified according to ISO 9000 and 14 001<br>
<br>
</font><img src="cid:0__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="16" height="16" alt="Inactive hide details for "SINGH Manjinder" ---2009-03-03 00:09:08---Hi Erik"><font size="4" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">"SINGH Manjinder" ---2009-03-03 00:09:08---Hi Erik</font>
<p>
<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tr valign="top"><td width="16%"><img src="cid:6__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="96" height="1"><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>
From:</font></td><td width="84%"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
"SINGH Manjinder" <Manjinder.SINGH@projectservices.qld.gov.au></font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="16%"><img src="cid:6__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="96" height="1"><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>
To:</font></td><td width="84%"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
"Erik Eriksson" <erik.eriksson@white.se>, "Nouman" <nouman310@yahoo.com></font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="16%"><img src="cid:6__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="96" height="1"><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>
Cc:</font></td><td width="84%" valign="middle"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
<virtual-sim@lists.onebuilding.org></font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="16%"><img src="cid:6__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="96" height="1"><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>
Date:</font></td><td width="84%"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
2009-03-03 00:09</font></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="16%"><img src="cid:6__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="96" height="1"><font size="4" color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>
Subject:</font></td><td width="84%"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
RE: [Virtual-sim] Issues and dxf?</font></td></tr>
</table>
<hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade><br>
<font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial"><br>
Hi Erik</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size="4" color="#000080" face="Arial"><br>
Presently I am working on the Microflo module of IES VE for a CFD analysis. What kind of help u need??</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><b><font size="4" color="#008000" face="Verdana"><br>
Manjinder Singh</font></b><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"><br>
Mechanical Engineer | Professional Services Portfolio | Project Services</font></b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"><br>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Level 5B 80 George Street,<br>
Brisbane, Queensland 4000<br>
T: (07) 3227 8064 | F: (07) 3224 6151</font><b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"><br>
E:</font></b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"> </font><a href="mailto:Manjinder.Singh@projectservices.qld.gov.au"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Verdana">Manjinder.Singh@projectservices.qld.gov.au</font></u></a><b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"> | Web:</font></b><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana"> </font><a href="http://www.projectservices.qld.gov.au/"><u><font size="4" color="#999999" face="Verdana">www.projectservices.qld.gov.au</font></u></a><div align="center"><hr width="100%" size="2" align="center"></div><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma">From:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> virtual-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org [</font><a href="mailto:virtual-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Tahoma">mailto:virtual-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Tahoma">] </font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma">On Behalf Of </font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma">Erik Eriksson</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Sent:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Tuesday, 3 March 2009 2:38 AM</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
To:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Nouman</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Cc:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> virtual-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Subject:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Re: [Virtual-sim] Issues and dxf?</font>
<p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Hi,<br>
<br>
ok, I've had some experience with dxf-imports. I did it a couple of years ago and was quite annoyed with it. Has it been improved? <br>
What I found was that when it found a text it looked around it and if it found walls then that was it, but since you can have different thinkness on the walls and you need to find the outer limit of the outer walls, but VE stops at the inner limit and the middle of the interior walls needs to be found it makes it quite complicated to turn a normal dwg-drawing into a useful one or have you worked out a smart method of doing this?<br>
<br>
When i was referering to reliability I was thinking of heat storage (with and without false celings) and solar insolation on more complex surfaces etc. <br>
<br>
Have you had any experience with MicroFlo?<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
E r i k E r i k s s o n <br>
<br>
Energy specialist and project manager<br>
________________________________<br>
White project & environmental management<br>
<br>
Box 4700<br>
116 92 STOCKHOLM<br>
Phone: +46(0)8-402 26 77<br>
Fax: +46 (0)8-402 25 10<br>
Visit: Östgötagatan 100</font><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br>
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We are certified according to ISO 9000 and 14 001<br>
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</font><img src="cid:0__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="16" height="16" alt="Inactive hide details for Nouman ---2009-03-02 17:21:18---Hi, yes dxf files can be imported in VE and can save tons of time in "><font size="4" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">Nouman ---2009-03-02 17:21:18---Hi, yes dxf files can be imported in VE and can save tons of time in drawing the building. Please ta</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> </font>
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From:</font></td><td width="82%"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
Nouman <nouman310@yahoo.com></font></td></tr>
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To:</font></td><td width="82%"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
Erik Eriksson <erik.eriksson@white.se>, virtual-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</font></td></tr>
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Date:</font></td><td width="82%"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
2009-03-02 17:21</font></td></tr>
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Subject:</font></td><td width="82%"><img src="cid:7__=4EBBFFEFDFF4F1C58f9e8a93df93869@white.se" width="1" height="1"><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
Re: [Virtual-sim] Issues and dxf?</font></td></tr>
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<br>
Hi,<br>
yes dxf files can be imported in VE and can save tons of time in drawing the building. Please take the following steps before you import any dxf into VE:</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> </font>
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<ul type="disc">
<li><font size="4" face="Arial">Remove in dxf file everything except: walls,windows, doors and labels</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<li><font size="4" face="Arial">When you are importing the dxf. make sure, that the appropriate scale has been input.</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<li><font size="4" face="Arial">The trick to find out scale of the drawing is, to measure a door, typically a single door is 1m, now let say the measurement comes upto be 10m it means its 1:10 scale. etc </font></ul>
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<font size="4" face="Arial">The calculation of VE is reliable. Only that the dynamic calculation gives us actualy true loads which some times differ from ASHRAE loads. The reason is ASHRAE does all its loads on a particualr design day. Whereas VE picks up the worse case scanario for the building. VE also has the capability to somply calculate ASHRAE loads. </font><i><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Verdana"><br>
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Best Regards;</font></i><i><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br>
Ali Nouman Khan</font></i><br>
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<b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
From:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Erik Eriksson <erik.eriksson@white.se></font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
To:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> virtual-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Sent:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> Monday, March 2, 2009 8:40:08 AM</font><b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"><br>
Subject:</font></b><font size="4" face="Tahoma"> [Virtual-sim] Issues and dxf?</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
Hi everyone!<br>
<br>
I just joined this mail list and I'm curious about how you use this program and if you have found any issues. <br>
I use it extensivly and I have a few issues with it and I'm afraid that some of the calculation methods arent that reliable. <br>
<br>
I've heard that many users import their geometry by using dxf-files. I've tried this, but I've found it somewhat complicated. <br>
Do you have any smart methods? What program do you use to create the dxf-files? Autocad?<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
E r i k E r i k s s o n <br>
<br>
Energy specialist and project manager<br>
________________________________<br>
White project & environmental management<br>
<br>
Box 4700<br>
116 92 STOCKHOLM<br>
Phone: +46(0)8-402 26 77<br>
Fax: +46 (0)8-402 25 10<br>
Visit: Östgötagatan 100</font><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font></u><a href="http://www.white.se/" target="_blank"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">http://www.white.se</font></u></a><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
We are certified according to ISO 9000 and 14 001 </font><div align="center"><hr width="100%" size="2" align="center"></div><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br>
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