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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Karen and all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’m confused here....how can a program that takes up to 3
hours to rename the zones but then takes minutes to get results, be better than
something that takes a few minutes to rename, but then takes a couple of hours
to run? They are about the same surely? The only advantage I can
see is that further iteration might be quicker in the former assuming your
geometry doesn’t change.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I have been using various modelling tools such as IES VE, TAS
and DesignBuilder as well as a few other tools when necessary (Fluent &
CHAM CFD etc) since the late 90s. IES is good, it’s quick to
produce models and excellent for dynamic natural ventilation design. TAS
is better at the HVAC and natural ventilation design aspects than IES and I
think it’s more accurate, but it’s front end still lacks some of
the functionality of other tools. Hopefully that is being addressed by
their links with Bentley. My colleague, Chris Yates (also on this list)
has become a bit of a wiz with the sketchup plug in for IES and this appears to
be much better than relying on the gbxml output of revit. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>DesignBuilder is the tool that I use most now in both SBEM (UK
regulations format) and EnergyPlus for dynamic modelling. It takes a lot
of the best features of both IES and TAS and then adds some other nice touches
in terms of data application to speed up the process of setting up your models.
The only sticking point with it is that EnergyPlus is painfully slow. The
main thing I’d like is for that to be changed and improved. Carrying
out simulations with all the lighting controls and calculated natural ventilation
turned on for buildings with over 100 zones is nigh on impossible as I don’t
fancy leaving it running for a week or two. I have to carry out major
sub-division of models or calculate individual zones then schedule up the vent
based on those results or just go with scheduled vent. Thankfully the
reporting methodology from DesignBuilder is pretty good, though I have to admit
I quite like some of the report wizard output by equest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The main advantage of the commercial tools as opposed to the
free tools such as DOE and equest, is that they use an interactive 3d model to
input the building and that you can interrogate much more easily for
post-processing. This means you gain an understanding of the building
form much more easily and many link with other tools for further analysis.
I like some of what equest has to offer, but I much prefer the interactive
model building tools that IES, TAS and DeisgnBuilder offer. They just
make it...easier...and generally quicker and more efficient when you consider
the other studies that you can do (e.g daylighting, CFD, etc).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In terms of asking for changes – having worked for
IES (and with many other developers), the stock answer even to their own team
was...yes it’s on the list. My guess is that will still be
the same.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dr Paul Carey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Director<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Low Carbon Energy Assessor<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Zero Energy Design Ltd<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>10A Portland Place<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>2-22 Mottram Road<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Stalybridge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>SK15 3AD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>T: 0161 3386200<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>F: 0161 3031281<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>M: 0789 4098012<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>E: paul@zed-uk.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>W: www.zed-uk.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><img width=110 height=88 id="Picture_x0020_3"
src="cid:image003.jpg@01C99834.5F4FDAC0"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Certificate No: GB16647<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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color:#1F497D'><img width=110 height=88 id="Picture_x0020_4"
src="cid:image004.jpg@01C99834.5F4FDAC0"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Certificate No: GB16646</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Company Registered in England & Wales. Registration
No. 5815068<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org
[mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Karen
Walkerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 February 2009 23:06<br>
<b>To:</b> Varkie C Thomas<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Varkie Thomas; bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] IES-VE Energy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Varkie,<br>
<br>
I disagree with your statement that eQuest is not appropriate for large
buildings because you can't change space names to match architectural names in
wizard mode, and the inputs created from the wizard aren't appropriate for all
spaces. The wizards are called "Schematic Design Wizard" and
"Design Development Wizard" for a reason. They aren't desinged
for detail, they're designed to help you make big design decisions
quickly. If you want the building to be modeled as closely as possible to
the final design, this takes some extra work. Yeah, re-naming spaces is a
pain, but at 5 seconds per space, re-naming 1,000 spaces takes about 1.5 hours,
well worth the effort. If you re-name zones too, maybe it's 3 hours
total.<br>
<br>
Yeah, some things about eQuest are clumsy, like why does it create one
underground wall (and floor) consturction for each surface, when only 4-5 are
needed for the whole model? Why does it re-create occupancy, lighting and
micellaneous equipment schedules for each shell, even if the use is the
same? And why does it create tons of duplicate infiltration
schedules? BUT... this takes an hour or two to clean up, and then you
have a decently flexible model that gives you reasonable results in a matter of
minutes. Versus a program that takes 1-2 hours to run. I've done a
few LEED projects in Trace700 and it's painful modeling a design case and four
(rotated) base cases at 1-2 hours each, especially if you then find you've left
anything out.<br>
<br>
I definitely agree that there are some major things missing in all modeling
programs, which is why I'm putting together a "Master Wish List" of
modeler's desires. If you have things that you would like to be able to
model, things you'd like to be able to model more easily, or things that you can
do that you feel are very important, please send me your list. I
currently have contact info for about 10 people representing various simulation
programs who want to know what we want! Now's our chance to have some
input!<br>
<br>
--<br>
Karen<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Varkie C Thomas <<a
href="mailto:thomasv@iit.edu">thomasv@iit.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p>Graham,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The comment below stands out which might also be the reason for
not using EnergyPlus on large projects.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><span style='color:firebrick'>- DOE-2.2 runs much quicker. For
comparable 30,000 m2 buildings I would say DOE-2 runs in 1 minute and IES VE
with an APhvac network probably 1-2 hours. If you through in
Macroflo it probably adds another hour of simulation time. As a
result </span><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:firebrick'>iterative trial
and error debugging</span></b><span style='color:firebrick'> has to be done on
a 1-2 week period.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p>Large building projects (1 to 10 million sqft) with up to 1,000 zones and 70
systems ranging in size from 10,000 to 200,000 cfm (pardon the English units -
the USA & the Bahamas are not going to switch to metric) require several
iterative runs to get the input errors fixed. Breaking up the project
into small pieces is not a solution since it affects demand costs,
central plants and other components. I have worked on such projects using
DOE2.1E and TRACE600/700. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>eQUEST is not suitable for such projects either. One of its
limitations is that you cannot enter the space names shown on architectural
drawings. Others include assuming all the input data and making all the
decisions for you when you enter the type of building. 1000 zones means
1000 infiltration schedules and multiples of other building components. It is
unrealistic to check all the input created by eQUEST for errors. Fixing
everything to match the exact project data has to be done in detailed
edit. Detailed edit means you lose access to the graphical method of
creating the building model from AutoCAD drawings which is the main benefit of
this program.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Varkie<o:p></o:p></p>
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