RES: [UA] Minor cards

[Haroudo Xavier]

First of all, thanks. :)
The best clients are those that love you and say 
why they love you, or hate you and say why they hate you. :) 

If you want to tell something more, about other cards etc, talk to me by
ICQ too, you have my UIN already. 

Let me get into this one anyway...

I read Tarot for a long time too, and yes, the archetype associantion is
not perfect. 
I never imagined it could be perfect.I disagree with one at one points
here: I didn’t choose 
before hand what are the archetypes I would work with, nor I took the
pictures with the cards in mind, 
with a few exceptions (hierophant, stranght, fool, devil, tower). Most
of the time, I take a look at the 
list and read both the card meanings in books, websites, whetever, just
to be more sure, read what the 
archetype means, and then I choose a pictures and work with it. Usually,
this part is easier, taking only 
about half and hour to make the image, sometimes much less, when I know
what I gonna do. So, it´s exactly 
the inverse order. I don´t try to fit a card into a archetype, but
archetypes in the cards, as this should be. 
At least in my opinion.    

Why I disconsidere (sp?) the Magus as an Archetype, even been told so
many times about it, and people telling 
me to put him in the Magician? Coz is an OLD and plainly DEAD Archetype
in a Post-Modern scenario. The Mystic 
Hermaphrodite replaced him as a quintessencial figure in the magick
scene and the IC as well, as I see it. Is
The root fo paradoxian magick itself. 

About the Naked Goddess and The Mother, granted. I was mistaken, and I
will swap their places. 

About Strenght...I can´t see a card that fits better with The Flying
Woman. Specially in the 
light of your own arguments. The Strenght had a symbolic force
associated with the overhelming forces that 
could rip apart the character on it (a woman), and still she bends then
with a gently touch, more force of will 
than anything. I can~t picture The Flying Woman as Sarah Connor at T2.
:) 

About the Devil, I will stick with The Demagogue or with The Two Faced
Man. Im trying to avoid using Archetypes not yet on UA, and I made one
exception at The Lover, but then I see no other alternative. The
Demagogue is the kibd of hopeless stupidity that would throw not just
him but everyone in a pip. Locked in his own chains if ignorance and
many times, utterly evilness. That~s Devil anough for me. The Two Faced
Man seens "nice" too, since the Devil is seen as a liar and a deceiver
than anything else, but beyond that, in still a little more inclined to
the demagogue (my brother is a politician, and I learn to loath his
kind, sorry). And the Two Faced Man already looks a lot with the
Adversary anyway...  

Agains...The Hanged Man is just a poor sod that doesn’t have a clue. In
this case, as the Confessor, im giving him already too much willpower.
Actually, I usually see myself a lot like the Confessor myself, wich is
a said line to be in. 

About the Two Faced and the Dark Stalker. One of then wants to have
power over the structure, the other, will just destroy it for it´s own
satisfaction. That´s the role of the former, destruction, pure and
simple. He doesn’t need or want a reason. No reason can explain what he
does. He just kills. That´s The Tower. And overhelming force of
Deatruction wich rips everything apart, and no knowledge, strong walls,
or will, will keep the buildings from falling down when oposed by this
divine wrath.

Why Peacemaker for temperance? Again, the Post-Modern "we gonna to hell"
principal. It sure, subverts the meaning of the card, but almost any
archetype would. The Mystic Hermaphrodite doesn´t strives for balance,
actually, the reverse is true, but he can´t be helped on that, is part
of it´s being to be a paradox. Getting back to the Peacemaker...War,
Violence, Destruction with a proportion beyond what we can cope, just
lingers in the horizon. The Peacemaker is an anwer to it, not as a
Balancing factor (that would really be The First And The Last Man), but
as a counterforce. That idea I just put in the image. She doesn’t change
water from one pot to the other, but pour tears. The Peacemaker is a
last cry for a balance, is the angel that would came to keep the
structure of the world, impeding it to fall apart.

Why the Star is the Martyr? He is the hope itself. Is a person,
promissing what he doesn’t posses, and offering his own life, for a
cause. There is no more generous gesture than that. And no more freedom,
than choosing to give his own life for his ideals. The Martyr, in my
book, stands as the star, and I hope you buy this explaination also. :)

See ya, Jade, and really, thanks a lot for your complains.   



Haroudo Xavier, 
the one that has no signature when using his XP partition...
so many things to do...
oh God, where is Master of Orion 3 this time?

ICQ.1504427



-----Mensagem original-----
De: ua-admin at lists.uchicago.edu [mailto:ua-admin at lists.uchicago.edu] Em
nome de Hammons, Jade
Enviada em: domingo, 16 de fevereiro de 2003 18:16
Para: ua at lists.uchicago.edu
Assunto: RE: [UA] Minor cards


Ew, this post got longer than I intended. Ignore if you want. It's just
the ramblings of a madman. All of this is my opinion only and should be
taken with a liberal dash of salt. Also I'm at work and I can't type any
longer so I am going to let this peter out ineffectually. Bleh.

	Eh, I have a few problems with the list, but for the average
person I imagine there will be few complaints. My main problems are that
I have read the Tarot for a long time and find disparities between what
the Archetypes of the Tarot are and what archetypes you have associated
with them. It seems as though you have a set of archetypes that you have
done that you are now trying to force into roles as a set of tarot
cards. Like choosing a bunch of typecast actors before you know what
parts you want them to play. 

The Magician and Temperance - The Magus is an archetype, as mentioned in
one of the books. 
Tempering metal is the mixture of flame and fire, it is the balance of
opposites to create a whole. Temperance is archetypally the Mystic
Hermaphrodite.

Strength, the High Priestess, and the Empress - Strength is a card that
deals with passion, the control, and overcoming thereof. Whereas the
Empress is the embodiment of a different kind of female power. Empress
better fits the mother. Strength better fits the Naked Goddess. The High
Priestess fits the role of Maiden not Mother, certainly there is a more
Maidenly Archetype to fit there. 

The Devil - An archetype not on the master list, that I have been
working on, and is mentioned by Jung, and many religions is The
Adversary. The Adversary is the Devil's advocate, creating conflict
where only the potential was before. The Adversary likes hanging around
with the The Demagogue, but I would argue they are two different
archetypes, and the the Adversary is not the Two-Faced man.

I'll buy your explanation of the Confessor as Hanged Man, though
historically the hanged man is the card of the martyr. 

The tower I think would be the Two-Faced man, as the Archetype brings
down structures from the inside. 

The Star is the freedom from the rigidity of Temperance, almost a better
home for the Flying Woman.

Jade Hammons


_______________________________________________
UA mailing list
UA at lists.uchicago.edu http://lists.uchicago.edu/mailman/listinfo/ua

_______________________________________________
UA mailing list
UA at lists.uchicago.edu http://lists.uchicago.edu/mailman/listinfo/ua


_______________________________________________
UA mailing list
UA at lists.uchicago.edu
http://lists.uchicago.edu/mailman/listinfo/ua