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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hi David and thanks for your answer. I tried, as I wrote to David, to increase the total mass flow rate of the system but it does not work anyway. I tried as well to set the "manual
geometry" in order to segment the active layer but it does not work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">If I set a pipe distance to 13 cm, it works, but if I reduce the distance to 10 cm, it does not work anymore even if I segment the active layer or I increase the total mass flowrate
through the pump of the system or if I increase the minimum desired mass flow rate through the active layer to at least 1.1 of the minimum.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Is there no other way to solve this problem?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Attached the files of my model. Maybe you can help me…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">Toni Calabrese</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">, MSc.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">Wissenschaftlicher Projektmitarbeiter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href="mailto:toni.calabrese@spf.ch">toni.calabrese@spf.ch</a> |</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href="mailto:toni.calabrese@ost.ch">toni.calabrese@ost.ch</a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">T +41 58 257 4827<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">SPF Institut für Solartechnik<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">OST – Ostschweizer Fachhochschule<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">Oberseestr. 10 | CH-8640 Rapperswil | Switzerland |
</span><u><span style="color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href="http://www.spf.ch"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#8C195F">www.spf.ch</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"> |
</span><u><span style="color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href="http://www.ost.ch"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#8C195F">www.ost.ch</span></a></span></u><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D">OST – Ostschweizer Fachhochschule ist der Zusammenschluss aus FHS St.Gallen, HSR Rapperswil und NTB Buchs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"> TRNSYS-users <trnsys-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Offtermatt via TRNSYS-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 9, 2021 8:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> TRNSYS users mailing list at OneBuilding.org <trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> David Offtermatt <david.offtermatt@hft-stuttgart.de><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Problem with Active Layer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Hi Toni<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I assume that by reducing the distance, the tube length has also increased. Does this happen?<br>
By approximating the ACT layer, the return temperature can drop below the core temperature because the fluid temperature decreases over the length of the tube. To avoid this, you need a minimum mass flow. In order to reproduce a realistic temperature curve,
you can make the layers smaller. But be carefull with the IN and OUT temperature.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Here you will find a detailed description: "Koschenz, Markus / Lehmann, Beat: Thermoaktive Bauteile tabs. [1. Aufl.], Dübendorf: EMPA Energiesysteme/Haustechnik, 2000. S.25"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">kind regards from antohter David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Von:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> TRNSYS-users <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>
im Auftrag von David BRADLEY via TRNSYS-users <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 8. Februar 2021 15:06:48<br>
<b>An:</b> TRNSYS users mailing list at OneBuilding.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> David BRADLEY<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Problem with Active Layer</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">***** ACHTUNG! Dies ist eine externe Mail. Öffnen Sie keine Anhänge und klicken Sie nicht auf enthaltene Links, solange Sie dem Absender nicht trauen und wissen, dass der Inhalt sicher ist *****
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p>Toni,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> I have run into this problem from time to time as well and was never able to discover the cause. I found that if I increased the flow rate to about 1.1 times the stated required flow the the error usually went away. The other thing you can do, of course,
is to segment the floor so that it will allow you to enter the flow that you wanted.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 02/08/2021 03:08, Toni Calabrese via TRNSYS-users wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Hi everyone,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">For a pilot project we are analyzing a heating system in which an "external wall heating system" is installed on the façade. Basically we have a wall with an active layer that is
insulated on the back in order to decrease the losses of this active layer to the outside.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">With a pipe spacing of 13.5 cm the system was working good. For a parametric study, I would like to run a study varying the pipe spacing. Setting the pipe spacing to 10 cm (instead
of 13.5 cm) the system does not simulate anymore. It gives me the following error:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">Message : Specific fluid mass flow of active layer in surface 24 below minimum value of 8.01 kg/m2h Please, increase the minimum mass flow rate or use the autosegmentation feature
of TRNBuild for subdividing the surface.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">I checked the massflow rate and I am sure that the mass flow rate is higher than the minimum. I tried to increase the massflow rate through the pump of the system but it does not
work. Which is the problem?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D">Here the data of my simulation:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">TRNSYS 17</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">Wall area: 10.16 m2</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">Massflow rate system: 86 kg/h</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">
<hr size="2" width="100%" align="center">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:4.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">Toni Calabrese</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">, MSc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">Wissenschaftlicher Projektmitarbeiter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href="mailto:toni.calabrese@spf.ch">toni.calabrese@spf.ch</a> |</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href="mailto:toni.calabrese@ost.ch">toni.calabrese@ost.ch</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">T +41 58 257 4827</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">SPF Institut für Solartechnik</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">OST – Ostschweizer Fachhochschule</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH">Oberseestr. 10 | CH-8640 Rapperswil | Switzerland |
</span><u><span style="color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href="http://www.spf.ch"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#8C195F">www.spf.ch</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"> |
</span><u><span style="color:#8C195F;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><a href="http://www.ost.ch"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#8C195F">www.ost.ch</span></a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D">OST – Ostschweizer Fachhochschule ist der Zusammenschluss aus FHS St.Gallen, HSR Rapperswil und NTB Buchs.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>TRNSYS-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org">TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>***************************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Principal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3 North Pinckney Street - suite 202<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>P:+1.608.274.2577<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.trnsys.com">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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