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<p>Dear Marion,</p>
<p>Thank for your response.</p>
<p>I'm surprised that equivalents results with (a) and (b) are get
with 2*S area, as it is not what I observe (with an hypothetical
zone only having one window and one internal wall): <br>
</p>
<p>(plots = temperature of the zone over the time)</p>
<p>- (a), area = 2*S ['T_zone_PI_2'] and (b), area = 2*S ['T_Zone
BI_2'] with the same symetric composition :<br>
</p>
<p><img src="cid:part1.52C160C6.CF9164BD@enertech.fr" alt=""></p>
<p>Results are actually very similar, but error seems to regularly
increase over the time.<br>
</p>
<p>- (a), area = 2*S, half composition ['T_zone_PI_2_divI'] and (b),
area = S, whole composition ['T_Zone BI_1'] :</p>
<p><img src="cid:part2.BE428F30.FE07095A@enertech.fr" alt=""></p>
<p>Results are nearly identical.<br>
</p>
- (a), area = 2*S ['T_zone_PI_2'] and (b), area = S ['T_Zone BI_1']
with the same composition:<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:part3.23F3E13B.2C6CD114@enertech.fr" alt=""><br>
(a) thermal mass is clearly higher than (b)<br>
<br>
By the way, I'm not sure to understand why (b) requires 2*S. For a
'classic' wall having a area S, the thermal flux of the inside face
(phi_i) goes to the inner zone (P_i=phi_i*S) and the thermal flux of
the outside face (phi_o) goes to the outer zone (P_o=phi_o*S). When
we defined this wall 'boundary/indentical', as the inner and outer
zone is the same, it automatically receives P_i + P_o via both
(inside and outside) faces (2*S), whitout having to set a 2*S area.
Unless the implementation is different with these options, as you
seem to indicate (parametrizing the global exposed area (2*S)). In
this case, is it sure that the surface is not accounted for 2 times
(due to inside and outside exposure and using 2*S area)?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 26/02/2019 à 11:43, Marion Hiller
via TRNSYS-users a écrit :<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear
Loïc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">I have to confess that this is a little
confusing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">I would have loved to remove the surface
category “internal” completely. However, due to backwards
compatibility it remained.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">I recommend to use
</span><span lang="EN-US">category 'boundary' and the boundary
condition 'identical' because there it is more clear what is
calculated.</span><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US">Please find my comments below:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">I noticed that the first option implies to
consider the total exposed surface (both sides) for the area
parameter, unlike the second one. I guess that in (a) the
middle of the wall is assumed adiabatic in order to model
only a half wall but with an area 2 times higher. If this is
correct, it is implicitly assumed that the internal wall
composition is symetric. By the way, I found that the wall
balance is not null otherwise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Is the (a) modelling really only concern
symetric composition?<br>
</span><span style="color:#0070C0" lang="EN-US">=> Yes, for
the option “internal” the composition has to be internal</span><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Nonetheless, when I compare (a) with a 2*S
area and (b) with a S area, for a symetric composition, the
results are not exactly the same. I succeed having same
results by setting the composition of (a) with only the half
of it (from a face to the middle).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:#0070C0" lang="EN-US">=> For having (a)
and (b) giving similar results you have to use for (b) the
same exposed area to the airnode/zone as for (a) (area
=2*S).<br>
Otherwise the airnode/zone doesn’t have “access” the
same amount of thermal mass. This results in different heat
fluxes to the inner surface
<br>
node. </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So, the (a) modelling
need half composition?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#0070C0" lang="EN-US">=>
No, (b) requires double area (see above).
<br>
Have in mind that “Internal” means that both sides of
the construction are facing towards the zone. You have to
define the total construction<br>
for having the correct mass. The program divides the
construction itself.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Marion<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#0070C0" lang="EN-US">
</span><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#005A00;mso-fareast-language:DE-CH"
lang="DE-CH">Dipl.-Ing. Marion Hiller </span></b><b><span
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">Von:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> TRNSYS-users
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"><trnsys-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org></a>
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Loïc Frayssinet via TRNSYS-users<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 21. Februar 2019 15:35<br>
<b>An:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Loïc Frayssinet
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:frayssinet@enertech.fr"><frayssinet@enertech.fr></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> [TRNSYS-users] Internal wall modelling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I was wondering if it is similar to model an internal wall as
a wall :<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(a) with the category 'internal' or<br>
(b) with the category 'boundary' and the boundary condition
'identical'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I noticed that the first option implies to consider the total
exposed surface (both sides) for the area parameter, unlike
the second one. I guess that in (a) the middle of the wall is
assumed adiabatic in order to model only a half wall but with
an area 2 times higher. If this is correct, it is implicitly
assumed that the internal wall composition is symetric. By the
way, I found that the wall balance is not null otherwise.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Is the (a) modelling really only concern symetric
composition?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Nonetheless, when I compare (a) with a 2*S area and (b) with
a S area, for a symetric composition, the results are not
exactly the same. I succeed having same results by setting the
composition of (a) with only the half of it (from a face to
the middle).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So, the (a) modelling need half composition? If yes, why
non-symetric compositions causes balance divergences?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">-- <br>
<b>Loïc FRAYSSINET </b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<b><font face="Calibri"> Loïc FRAYSSINET </font></b><font
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