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<p>Karol,</p>
<p> I haven't tried it but I suppose you could. You can divide the
floor in Trnsys3D up into a series of smaller floors. In TRNBuild
you'd then define an active layer for each section and then you'd
connect the floor sections together using Type56 inputs and
outputs. In essence the Type56 model will end up being connected
to itself such that the outlet flow from one floor section is the
inlet flow to the next. <br>
</p>
<p>kind regards,</p>
<p> David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/05/2018 10:51, Karol Bandurski
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">David,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">So
you mean that o if I need both: detailed calculation and low
mass flow, I should divide active surface (ceiling/floor) on
my own in SketchUp to allow TRNSYS calculation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">Am
I right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">Karol
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US"> David BRADLEY
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 5, 2018 4:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Karol Bandurski; 'TRNSYS </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">users
mailing list at OneBuilding.org'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] small mass flow in
TABS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Karol <o:p></o:p></p>
<p> My apologies; I forgot to mention one very important thing!
When you segment a floor you're essentially adding more
surfaces to the zone. Therefore you cannot use the "3D Data"
zone geometry mode nor the detailed radiation modes. Open the
zone/airnode window for the zone in question and take the
following steps:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>1. click on the "Radiation Mode" button and switch everything
to the "standard" model. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>2. click on the "Geometry Modes" button then switch from "3D
Data" to "manual." <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>3. go back to the radiant floor specification and you should
be able to activate the segmentation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> Because of the need to shift away from detailed radiation
models (which may be quite important to your model) it might
be worth looking at the restrictions on the floor model with
regards to how the pipe spacing and layer thicknesses affect
the minimum allowable flow rate. Perhaps there are some
modifications that you can make to the flow rate or the piping
configuration so that you can keep the detailed radiation
models.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 06/05/2018 02:22, Karol Bandurski
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">David,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">When
I do what you advise then TRNBuild give information that
it is impossible (enclosed)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">I
will sent you also B17 file to allow that you could check
it on yourself.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">Regards,<br>
Karol</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">
David BRADLEY [<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 4, 2018 11:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Karol BANDURSKI; 'TRNSYS users mailing list
at OneBuilding.org'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] small mass flow in
TABS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Karol,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> In the screencap that you sent it is the value currently
set to 10 that you need to adjust. The model is saying that
as long as the flow rate to the floor is greater than 9.09
kg/h.m2 (1229.52 kg/h) then you don't need auto
segmentation. If you want a lower flow rate than that (for
example 8 kg/h.m2) then change the value currently set to 10
to 8 and you should then have the ability to segment the
floor. The number of loops has a minor impact on the
allowable flow rate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 06/04/2018 13:58, Karol BANDURSKI
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">David,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Both this errors have appeared when I
decrease mass flow rate two times and increase number of
loops 10 times…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">I don’t know way, but I don’t have option
“autosegmentation” (print screen enclosed)…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">It seems to me that increase of loops
number has not change minimum allowed mass flow rate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Kind regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Karol</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">
David BRADLEY [<a
href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 4, 2018 7:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> TRNSYS users mailing list at
OneBuilding.org <a
href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org></a>;
<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Karol Bandurski <a
href="mailto:karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl"
moz-do-not-send="true"><karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] small mass flow
in TABS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Karol,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> I do not think that the problem with the matrix
inversion and the low flow rate in the active layer are
necessarily related. I'm not sure what to suggest about
the matrix inversion. The active layer model has a minimum
allowable flow rate that is based on pipe spacing, the
thickness of the layer(s) in which the pipes are embedded
and the area of the floor. If you want to give a lower
flow rate then you need to segment the floor, which means
treating the floor like it was a few floors in series.
Enter the desired minimum mass flow rate in the active
layer definition screen. If it is below the minimum
"allowed" mass flow rate then you'll have the option to
segment the floor.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 06/04/2018 01:58, Karol Bandurski
via TRNSYS-users wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Experts<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I have problem
with simulation TABS with specific mass flow rate
about 5.4 kg/hm2.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There are two
errors:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt">1)<span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman , serif","serif""> </span><span
lang="EN-US">Specific fluid mass flow of active layer
in surface 894 below minimum value of 8.90 kg/m2h
Please, increase the minimum mass flow rate or use the
autosegmentation feature of TRNBuild for subdividing
the surface.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt">2)<span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman , serif","serif""> </span><span
lang="EN-US">Subroutine INVERT was called from
subroutine INVPAR with a singular matrix!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I have increase
number of loops 10 times but nothing change…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It is possible to
do simulation with so low mass flow rate?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind regards,<br>
Karol</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">--------------------------------------------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">Karol BANDURSKI M. Sc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">Faculty of Civil and Environemntal
Engeneering</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">Division of Heating, Air Conditioning and
Air Protection</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">Poznan University of Technology</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karol_Bandurski"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karol_Bandurski</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:PL"><a
href="http://www.put.poznan.pl/%7Ekarol.bandurski"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span lang="EN-US">www.put.poznan.pl/~karol.bandurski</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>TRNSYS-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org" moz-do-not-send="true">TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>***************************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Principal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>P:+1.608.274.2577<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>F:+1.608.278.1475<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.trnsys.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>***************************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Principal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>P:+1.608.274.2577<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>F:+1.608.278.1475<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.trnsys.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";mso-fareast-language:PL"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>***************************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Principal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>P:+1.608.274.2577<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>F:+1.608.278.1475<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.trnsys.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tess-inc.com">http://www.tess-inc.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.trnsys.com">http://www.trnsys.com</a></pre>
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