<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Karol <br>
</p>
<p> My apologies; I forgot to mention one very important thing!
When you segment a floor you're essentially adding more surfaces
to the zone. Therefore you cannot use the "3D Data" zone geometry
mode nor the detailed radiation modes. Open the zone/airnode
window for the zone in question and take the following steps:</p>
<p>1. click on the "Radiation Mode" button and switch everything to
the "standard" model. <br>
</p>
<p>2. click on the "Geometry Modes" button then switch from "3D
Data" to "manual." <br>
</p>
<p>3. go back to the radiant floor specification and you should be
able to activate the segmentation.</p>
<p> Because of the need to shift away from detailed radiation
models (which may be quite important to your model) it might be
worth looking at the restrictions on the floor model with regards
to how the pipe spacing and layer thicknesses affect the minimum
allowable flow rate. Perhaps there are some modifications that you
can make to the flow rate or the piping configuration so that you
can keep the detailed radiation models.</p>
<p>kind regards,</p>
<p> David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/05/2018 02:22, Karol Bandurski
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:004901d3fc9d$e64430d0$b2cc9270$@put.poznan.pl">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Consolas;
panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML - wst\0119pnie sformatowany Znak";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;
mso-fareast-language:PL;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0cm;
margin-right:0cm;
margin-bottom:0cm;
margin-left:36.0pt;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:black;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}
span.HTML-wstpniesformatowanyZnak
{mso-style-name:"HTML - wst\0119pnie sformatowany Znak";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML - wst\0119pnie sformatowany";
font-family:Consolas;
color:black;
mso-fareast-language:EN-US;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0cm;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0cm;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;
mso-fareast-language:PL;}
span.Stylwiadomocie-mail22
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:windowtext;}
span.Stylwiadomocie-mail23
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.Stylwiadomocie-mail24
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">David,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">When
I do what you advise then TRNBuild give information that it
is impossible (enclosed)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">I
will sent you also B17 file to allow that you could check it
on yourself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">Regards,<br>
Karol<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">
David BRADLEY [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 4, 2018 11:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Karol BANDURSKI; 'TRNSYS users mailing list
at OneBuilding.org'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] small mass flow in
TABS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Karol,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> In the screencap that you sent it is the value currently set
to 10 that you need to adjust. The model is saying that as
long as the flow rate to the floor is greater than 9.09
kg/h.m2 (1229.52 kg/h) then you don't need auto segmentation.
If you want a lower flow rate than that (for example 8
kg/h.m2) then change the value currently set to 10 to 8 and
you should then have the ability to segment the floor. The
number of loops has a minor impact on the allowable flow rate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 06/04/2018 13:58, Karol BANDURSKI
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">David,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">Both
this errors have appeared when I decrease mass flow rate
two times and increase number of loops 10 times…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">I
don’t know way, but I don’t have option “autosegmentation”
(print screen enclosed)…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">It
seems to me that increase of loops number has not change
minimum allowed mass flow rate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">Kind
regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US">Karol</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D" lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:PL">
David BRADLEY [<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 4, 2018 7:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> TRNSYS users mailing list at
OneBuilding.org <a
href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org></a>;
<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Karol Bandurski <a
href="mailto:karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl"
moz-do-not-send="true"><karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] small mass flow in
TABS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Karol,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> I do not think that the problem with the matrix inversion
and the low flow rate in the active layer are necessarily
related. I'm not sure what to suggest about the matrix
inversion. The active layer model has a minimum allowable
flow rate that is based on pipe spacing, the thickness of
the layer(s) in which the pipes are embedded and the area of
the floor. If you want to give a lower flow rate then you
need to segment the floor, which means treating the floor
like it was a few floors in series. Enter the desired
minimum mass flow rate in the active layer definition
screen. If it is below the minimum "allowed" mass flow rate
then you'll have the option to segment the floor.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>kind regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 06/04/2018 01:58, Karol Bandurski
via TRNSYS-users wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Experts<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I have problem with
simulation TABS with specific mass flow rate about 5.4
kg/hm2.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">There are two
errors:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt">1)<span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""> </span><span
lang="EN-US">Specific fluid mass flow of active layer in
surface 894 below minimum value of 8.90 kg/m2h Please,
increase the minimum mass flow rate or use the
autosegmentation feature of TRNBuild for subdividing the
surface.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-18.0pt">2)<span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""> </span><span
lang="EN-US">Subroutine INVERT was called from
subroutine INVPAR with a singular matrix!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I have increase
number of loops 10 times but nothing change…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It is possible to do
simulation with so low mass flow rate?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind regards,<br>
Karol</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">--------------------------------------------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">Karol BANDURSKI M. Sc.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">Faculty of Civil and Environemntal
Engeneering</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">Division of Heating, Air Conditioning and
Air Protection</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:PL"
lang="EN-US">Poznan University of Technology</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karol_Bandurski"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Karol_Bandurski</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:PL"><a
href="http://www.put.poznan.pl/%7Ekarol.bandurski"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span lang="EN-US">www.put.poznan.pl/~karol.bandurski</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>TRNSYS-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org" moz-do-not-send="true">TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>***************************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Principal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>P:+1.608.274.2577<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>F:+1.608.278.1475<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.trnsys.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif";mso-fareast-language:PL"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>***************************<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Principal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>P:+1.608.274.2577<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>F:+1.608.278.1475<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.trnsys.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tess-inc.com">http://www.tess-inc.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.trnsys.com">http://www.trnsys.com</a></pre>
</body>
</html>