<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">Dear David,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">As always, thank you so much for the informative answers. I'm trying to confirm if I understood correctly.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">1. "...<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(34,34,34)">It is computed as the mass flow rate of air multiplied by the difference between the enthalpy of air leaving the heat pump and the enthalpy of the mixed air (return + ambient) entering the evaporator"..."</span><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">It could be that your heat pump is cooling because there is no ambient air being mixed in and the heat pump is working only with return air...</span>" </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">so, as long as the enthalpy of entering air is larger than that of the leaving air, cooling rate will computed as positive, right? and this could happen even during the winter. One possibility is that there is no ambient air entering the heat pump and the entering air (only containing returned air) is even hotter than the leaving air, right?</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">2. "...<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Performance is interpolated within the range of data given in the file but it is not extrapolated beyond the range...</span>"</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">I checked the external file and found something like:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style><div class="gmail_default" style><font color="#3333ff" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">0.875<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.000<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.042<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>!Normalized air flow rate<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style><font color="#3333ff" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">15.56<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>21.11<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>23.89<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>26.67<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>!Return air dry bulb temperature (C)<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style><font color="#3333ff" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">-19.44<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-16.67<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-13.89<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-11.11<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-8.33<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-5.56<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-2.78<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>0<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2.78<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>5.56<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>8.33<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>11.11<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>13.89<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>16.67<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>19.44<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>22.22<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>!Outdoor dry bulb temperature (C)</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style><font color="#3333ff" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">1.0000<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.0000<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style><font color="#3333ff" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">1.1707<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.0597<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">...</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">I was wondering what kind of information we can learn from this file, especially in terms of the temperature range that gives valid computation like what you mentioned? Thanks!</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">best regards,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">Enyuan</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 12:59 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:trnsys-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">trnsys-users-request@lists.onebuilding.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send TRNSYS-users mailing list submissions to<br>
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<br>Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: total heating rate and total cooling rate in heat pump<br>
954 (David BRADLEY)<br>
2. Re: (no subject) (haydar =?UTF-8?Q?kepek=C3=A7i?=)<br>
3. Re: (no subject) (<a href="mailto:mcdowell@tess-inc.com">mcdowell@tess-inc.com</a>)<br>
4. Re: (no subject) (Jason Glazer)<br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: David BRADLEY <<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>><br>To: "TRNSYS users mailing list at OneBuilding.org" <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>, trnsys-users <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a>><br>Cc: <br>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:59:49 -0600<br>Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] total heating rate and total cooling rate in heat pump 954<br>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Enyuan,<br>
The total cooling rate is the sensible and latent energy being
removed from the air stream by the active section of the heat pump.
It is computed as the mass flow rate of air multiplied by the
difference between the enthalpy of air leaving the heat pump and the
enthalpy of the mixed air (return + ambient) entering the
evaporator. The heat pump does not have any kind of economizer
controls built into it. The amount of outdoor air being mixed with
return air is simply a function of how you have set the outdoor air
damper position input. It could be that your heat pump is cooling
because there is no ambient air being mixed in and the heat pump is
working only with return air. If your concern is that the heat pump
would not operate when the ambient temperature is so low (because of
freeze up in the condenser) then you have to be careful of your
external data file. Performance is interpolated within the range of
data given in the file but it is not extrapolated beyond the range.
If the heat pump asks for cooling (because of the way you have set
the cooling signal input and fan control signal) then the
performance (cooling capacity and COP) will be returned for the
closest ambient temperature found in the data file.<br>
Regards,<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 11/19/2014 14:26, Enyuan Hu wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff">Dear
all,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff">When
I'm using a type 954 air-to-air heat pump to condition a one
zone building, I found that even during the winter (ambient
temperature is below the cooling threshold), the 'total
cooling rate' output from the heat pump is positive instead of
being zero as expected. Can anyone help me explain why?
Thanks!</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff">best
regards,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff">Enyuan
Hu</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.274.2577" value="+16082742577" target="_blank">+1.608.274.2577</a>
F:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.278.1475" value="+16082781475" target="_blank">+1.608.278.1475</a>
<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>
<a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" target="_blank">http://www.tess-inc.com</a>
<a href="http://www.trnsys.com" target="_blank">http://www.trnsys.com</a></pre>
</div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: "haydar kepekçi" <<a href="mailto:haydar389@gmail.com">haydar389@gmail.com</a>><br>To: "TRNSYS users mailing list at OneBuilding.org" <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>Cc: <br>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 17:23:16 +0200<br>Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] (no subject)<br><p dir="ltr">Dont send me e- mail !! I dont want to see ur words about Fucking trnsys !!!<br></p>
<p dir="ltr">Sent using <a href="https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pa&cv=5.1.6.5&pv=4.3" target="_blank">CloudMagic</a></p>
<br><div style="color:#787878">On Per, Kas 20, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Ben Heymer <<a href="mailto:bheymer@gmail.com" target="_blank">bheymer@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div style="background-image:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);background-repeat:initial initial"><blockquote><p dir="ltr">You should look through your "Result" file for the source of the error.
<br>
<br>
A common cause of errors of this type is convergence. Make sure you
<br>
have enough volume in your water loop for at least 1 timestep of water
<br>
flow. Sometimes it's also helpful to connect the mass flow output of
<br>
the pump right back to the mass flow input.
<br>
<br>
As a last resort, you can relax the convergence parameters and error
<br>
thresholds in the control cards.
<br>
<br>
Ben Heymer, PE
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:52 AM, Michael Stochniol
<br>
<<a href="mailto:stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de" target="_blank">stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de</a>> wrote:
<br>
> Hallo everyone,
<br>
>
<br>
> im trying to create a control function using equations with logic operators for the control of a variable speed pump, in order to adjust the massflow trough the pump. I wrote a control funktion and plotted it without connecting it to the pump and it seemed to work right. But if i am conecting it to the pump my simulation freezes after around 700 timesteps or less. I am trying to create solar domestic hot water system. The question is, is it possible to create this kind of control circuit with equations ? I have similar problems with every control loop i am trying to create this way. The math should work but implemented in TRNSYS (TRNSYS 17) the simulation stick somewhere.
<br>
>
<br>
> I am no experienced user so maybe someone could give my some advise how to implement this kind of control functions right?
<br>
>
<br>
> i am very grateful for any help or ideas.
<br>
>
<br>
> thanks in advance
<br>
>
<br>
> Michael Stochniol
<br>
> _______________________________________________
<br>
> TRNSYS-users mailing list
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</p>
</blockquote></div>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <a href="mailto:mcdowell@tess-inc.com">mcdowell@tess-inc.com</a><br>To: "TRNSYS users mailing list at OneBuilding.org" <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>Cc: <br>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:57:52 -0600<br>Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] (no subject)<br><u></u>
<div>
<p>Haydar Kepekci -</p>
<p>Please use the links at the bottom of the email to unsubscribe from the TRNSYS mailing list. </p>
<p>And please avoid using offensive language in email messages.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Tim</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<pre>---<br>Timothy P. McDowell
Executive Vice President
Thermal Energy System Specialists, LLC
22 N Carroll St, Suite 370
Madison, WI 53703
<a href="tel:608-274-2577" value="+16082742577" target="_blank">608-274-2577</a></pre>
</div>
<p>On 2014-11-20 09:23, haydar kepekçi wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin-left:5px">
<p dir="ltr">Dont send me e- mail !! I dont want to see ur words about Fucking trnsys !!!</p>
<p dir="ltr">Sent using <a href="https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pa&cv=5.1.6.5&pv=4.3" target="_blank">CloudMagic</a></p>
<br>
<div style="color:#787878">On Per, Kas 20, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Ben Heymer <<a href="mailto:bheymer@gmail.com" target="_blank">bheymer@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div style="background-image:initial;background-color:#ffffff;background-repeat:initial initial">
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding-left:5px;border-left:#1010ff 2px solid;margin-left:5px">
<p dir="ltr">You should look through your "Result" file for the source of the error. <br><br> A common cause of errors of this type is convergence. Make sure you <br> have enough volume in your water loop for at least 1 timestep of water <br> flow. Sometimes it's also helpful to connect the mass flow output of <br> the pump right back to the mass flow input. <br><br> As a last resort, you can relax the convergence parameters and error <br> thresholds in the control cards. <br><br> Ben Heymer, PE <br><br> On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:52 AM, Michael Stochniol <br> <<a href="mailto:stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de" target="_blank">stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de</a>> wrote: <br> > Hallo everyone, <br> > <br> > im trying to create a control function using equations with logic operators for the control of a variable speed pump, in order to adjust the massflow trough the pump. I wrote a control funktion and plotted it without connecting it to the pump and it seemed to work right. But if i am conecting it to the pump my simulation freezes after around 700 timesteps or less. I am trying to create solar domestic hot water system. The question is, is it possible to create this kind of control circuit with equations ? I have similar problems with every control loop i am trying to create this way. The math should work but implemented in TRNSYS (TRNSYS 17) the simulation stick somewhere. <br> > <br> > I am no experienced user so maybe someone could give my some advise how to implement this kind of control functions right? <br> > <br> > i am very grateful for any help or ideas. <br> > <br> > thanks in advance <br> > <br> > Michael Stochniol <br> > _______________________________________________ <br> > TRNSYS-users mailing list <br> > <a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a> <br> > <a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org</a> <br> _______________________________________________ <br> TRNSYS-users mailing list <br> <a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a> <br> <a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org</a> </p>
</blockquote>
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<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Jason Glazer <<a href="mailto:jglazer@gard.com">jglazer@gard.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>Cc: <br>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:59:19 -0600<br>Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] (no subject)<br>As a reminder, to unsubscribe just send a blank email to:<br>
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Jason<br>
<br>
On 11/20/2014 9:23 AM, haydar kepekçi wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dont send me e- mail !! I dont want to see ur words about<br>
trnsys !!!<br>
<br>
Sent using CloudMagic<br>
<<a href="https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pa&cv=5.1.6.5&pv=4.3" target="_blank">https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/<u></u>mailapp?ct=pa&cv=5.1.6.5&pv=4.<u></u>3</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
On Per, Kas 20, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Ben Heymer<br>
<<a href="mailto:bheymer@gmail.com" target="_blank">bheymer@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:bheymer@gmail.com" target="_blank">bheymer@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
You should look through your "Result" file for the<br>
source of the error.<br>
<br>
A common cause of errors of this type is convergence.<br>
Make sure you<br>
have enough volume in your water loop for at least 1<br>
timestep of water<br>
flow. Sometimes it's also helpful to connect the mass<br>
flow output of<br>
the pump right back to the mass flow input.<br>
<br>
As a last resort, you can relax the convergence<br>
parameters and error<br>
thresholds in the control cards.<br>
<br>
Ben Heymer, PE<br>
<br>
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:52 AM, Michael Stochniol<br>
<<a href="mailto:stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de" target="_blank">stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de</a>> wrote:<br>
> Hallo everyone,<br>
><br>
> im trying to create a control function using<br>
equations with logic operators for the control of a<br>
variable speed pump, in order to adjust the massflow<br>
trough the pump. I wrote a control funktion and plotted<br>
it without connecting it to the pump and it seemed to<br>
work right. But if i am conecting it to the pump my<br>
simulation freezes after around 700 timesteps or less. I<br>
am trying to create solar domestic hot water system. The<br>
question is, is it possible to create this kind of<br>
control circuit with equations ? I have similar problems<br>
with every control loop i am trying to create this way.<br>
The math should work but implemented in TRNSYS (TRNSYS<br>
17) the simulation stick somewhere.<br>
><br>
> I am no experienced user so maybe someone could give<br>
my some advise how to implement this kind of control<br>
functions right?<br>
><br>
> i am very grateful for any help or ideas.<br>
><br>
> thanks in advance<br>
><br>
> Michael Stochniol<br>
> ______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
> TRNSYS-users mailing list<br>
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Jason Glazer, P.E., GARD Analytics, 90.1 ECB chair<br>
Admin for <a href="http://onebuilding.org" target="_blank">onebuilding.org</a> building performance mailing lists<br>
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