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Enyuan,<br>
<br>
1. That is correct.<br>
<br>
2. There is a lot of information in the data file. The file that you
excerpted below is the heating performance data file and it says
that the performance metrics are valid for return air temperatures
(actually mixed return + outdoor air temperatures) between 15.6 and
26.7C and for outdoor temperatures between -19.4 and 22.2C. If you
look at the cooling performance data file you will find a line near
the top of the file that has the comment "outdoor dry bulb" (or
something like that). If you look at the minimum and maximum value
on that line you will find the range of temperatures over which the
cooling performance data is valid.<br>
Regards,<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/21/2014 12:26, Enyuan Hu wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJud35MWueJV63Yn27Xh=3Bteq3JHQ_xfj8kXEW0_jibQV_ODw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">Dear
David,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">As
always, thank you so much for the informative answers. I'm
trying to confirm if I understood correctly.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">1.
"...<span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(34,34,34)">It
is computed as the mass flow rate of air multiplied by the
difference between the enthalpy of air leaving the heat pump
and the enthalpy of the mixed air (return + ambient)
entering the evaporator"..."</span><span
style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">It
could be that your heat pump is cooling because there is no
ambient air being mixed in and the heat pump is working only
with return air...</span>" </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">so,
as long as the enthalpy of entering air is larger than that of
the leaving air, cooling rate will computed as positive,
right? and this could happen even during the winter. One
possibility is that there is no ambient air entering the heat
pump and the entering air (only containing returned air) is
even hotter than the leaving air, right?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">2.
"...<span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Performance
is interpolated within the range of data given in the file
but it is not extrapolated beyond the range...</span>"</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">I
checked the external file and found something like:</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="">
<div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif" color="#3333ff">0.875<span class=""
style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.000<span class=""
style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.042<span class=""
style="white-space:pre"> </span>!Normalized air flow
rate<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif" color="#3333ff">15.56<span class=""
style="white-space:pre"> </span>21.11<span class=""
style="white-space:pre"> </span>23.89<span class=""
style="white-space:pre"> </span>26.67<span class=""
style="white-space:pre"> </span>!Return air dry bulb
temperature (C)<span class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif" color="#3333ff">-19.44<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-16.67<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-13.89<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-11.11<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-8.33<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-5.56<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>-2.78<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>0<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2.78<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>5.56<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>8.33<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>11.11<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>13.89<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>16.67<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>19.44<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>22.22<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>!Outdoor dry
bulb temperature (C)</font></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif" color="#3333ff">1.0000<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.0000<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div>
<div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif" color="#3333ff">1.1707<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.0597<span
class="" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">...</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">I
was wondering what kind of information we can learn from this
file, especially in terms of the temperature range that gives
valid computation like what you mentioned? Thanks!</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">best
regards,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(51,51,255)">Enyuan</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 12:59 PM, <span
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: total heating rate and total cooling rate in heat
pump<br>
954 (David BRADLEY)<br>
2. Re: (no subject) (haydar =?UTF-8?Q?kepek=C3=A7i?=)<br>
3. Re: (no subject) (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mcdowell@tess-inc.com">mcdowell@tess-inc.com</a>)<br>
4. Re: (no subject) (Jason Glazer)<br>
<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: David BRADLEY <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>><br>
To: "TRNSYS users mailing list at OneBuilding.org" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>,
trnsys-users <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 09:59:49 -0600<br>
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] total heating rate and total
cooling rate in heat pump 954<br>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Enyuan,<br>
The total cooling rate is the sensible and latent energy
being removed from the air stream by the active section of
the heat pump. It is computed as the mass flow rate of air
multiplied by the difference between the enthalpy of air
leaving the heat pump and the enthalpy of the mixed air
(return + ambient) entering the evaporator. The heat pump
does not have any kind of economizer controls built into
it. The amount of outdoor air being mixed with return air
is simply a function of how you have set the outdoor air
damper position input. It could be that your heat pump is
cooling because there is no ambient air being mixed in and
the heat pump is working only with return air. If your
concern is that the heat pump would not operate when the
ambient temperature is so low (because of freeze up in the
condenser) then you have to be careful of your external
data file. Performance is interpolated within the range of
data given in the file but it is not extrapolated beyond
the range. If the heat pump asks for cooling (because of
the way you have set the cooling signal input and fan
control signal) then the performance (cooling capacity and
COP) will be returned for the closest ambient temperature
found in the data file.<br>
Regards,<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 11/19/2014 14:26, Enyuan Hu wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff">Dear
all,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff">When
I'm using a type 954 air-to-air heat pump to
condition a one zone building, I found that even
during the winter (ambient temperature is below the
cooling threshold), the 'total cooling rate' output
from the heat pump is positive instead of being zero
as expected. Can anyone help me explain why? Thanks!</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff">best
regards,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#3333ff">Enyuan
Hu</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1.608.274.2577" value="+16082742577" target="_blank">+1.608.274.2577</a>
F:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1.608.278.1475" value="+16082781475" target="_blank">+1.608.278.1475</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.tess-inc.com" target="_blank">http://www.tess-inc.com</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.trnsys.com" target="_blank">http://www.trnsys.com</a></pre>
</div>
<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: "haydar kepekçi" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:haydar389@gmail.com">haydar389@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "TRNSYS users mailing list at OneBuilding.org" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 17:23:16 +0200<br>
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] (no subject)<br>
<p dir="ltr">Dont send me e- mail !! I dont want to see ur
words about Fucking trnsys !!!<br>
</p>
<p dir="ltr">Sent using <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pa&cv=5.1.6.5&pv=4.3"
target="_blank">CloudMagic</a></p>
<br>
<div style="color:#787878">On Per, Kas 20, 2014 at 4:32 PM,
Ben Heymer <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bheymer@gmail.com" target="_blank">bheymer@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div
style="background-image:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);background-repeat:initial
initial">
<blockquote>
<p dir="ltr">You should look through your "Result" file
for the source of the error.
<br>
<br>
A common cause of errors of this type is convergence.
Make sure you
<br>
have enough volume in your water loop for at least 1
timestep of water
<br>
flow. Sometimes it's also helpful to connect the mass
flow output of
<br>
the pump right back to the mass flow input.
<br>
<br>
As a last resort, you can relax the convergence
parameters and error
<br>
thresholds in the control cards.
<br>
<br>
Ben Heymer, PE
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:52 AM, Michael Stochniol
<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de"
target="_blank">stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de</a>>
wrote:
<br>
> Hallo everyone,
<br>
>
<br>
> im trying to create a control function using
equations with logic operators for the control of a
variable speed pump, in order to adjust the massflow
trough the pump. I wrote a control funktion and
plotted it without connecting it to the pump and it
seemed to work right. But if i am conecting it to the
pump my simulation freezes after around 700 timesteps
or less. I am trying to create solar domestic hot
water system. The question is, is it possible to
create this kind of control circuit with equations ? I
have similar problems with every control loop i am
trying to create this way. The math should work but
implemented in TRNSYS (TRNSYS 17) the simulation
stick somewhere.
<br>
>
<br>
> I am no experienced user so maybe someone could
give my some advise how to implement this kind of
control functions right?
<br>
>
<br>
> i am very grateful for any help or ideas.
<br>
>
<br>
> thanks in advance
<br>
>
<br>
> Michael Stochniol
<br>
> _______________________________________________
<br>
> TRNSYS-users mailing list
<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank">TRNSYS-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>
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target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/trnsys-users-onebuilding.org</a>
<br>
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</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br>
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mcdowell@tess-inc.com">mcdowell@tess-inc.com</a><br>
To: "TRNSYS users mailing list at OneBuilding.org" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org">trnsys-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:57:52 -0600<br>
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] (no subject)<br>
<div>
<p>Haydar Kepekci -</p>
<p>Please use the links at the bottom of the email to
unsubscribe from the TRNSYS mailing list. </p>
<p>And please avoid using offensive language in email
messages.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Tim</p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<pre>---
Timothy P. McDowell
Executive Vice President
Thermal Energy System Specialists, LLC
22 N Carroll St, Suite 370
Madison, WI 53703
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:608-274-2577" value="+16082742577" target="_blank">608-274-2577</a></pre>
</div>
<p>On 2014-11-20 09:23, haydar kepekçi wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
style="padding-left:5px;border-left:#1010ff 2px
solid;margin-left:5px">
<p dir="ltr">Dont send me e- mail !! I dont want to see
ur words about Fucking trnsys !!!</p>
<p dir="ltr">Sent using <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pa&cv=5.1.6.5&pv=4.3"
target="_blank">CloudMagic</a></p>
<br>
<div style="color:#787878">On Per, Kas 20, 2014 at 4:32
PM, Ben Heymer <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bheymer@gmail.com" target="_blank">bheymer@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div
style="background-image:initial;background-color:#ffffff;background-repeat:initial
initial">
<blockquote type="cite"
style="padding-left:5px;border-left:#1010ff 2px
solid;margin-left:5px">
<p dir="ltr">You should look through your "Result"
file for the source of the error. <br>
<br>
A common cause of errors of this type is
convergence. Make sure you <br>
have enough volume in your water loop for at least
1 timestep of water <br>
flow. Sometimes it's also helpful to connect the
mass flow output of <br>
the pump right back to the mass flow input. <br>
<br>
As a last resort, you can relax the convergence
parameters and error <br>
thresholds in the control cards. <br>
<br>
Ben Heymer, PE <br>
<br>
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:52 AM, Michael Stochniol
<br>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de"
target="_blank">stochnio@mail.hs-ulm.de</a>>
wrote: <br>
> Hallo everyone, <br>
> <br>
> im trying to create a control function using
equations with logic operators for the control of
a variable speed pump, in order to adjust the
massflow trough the pump. I wrote a control
funktion and plotted it without connecting it to
the pump and it seemed to work right. But if i am
conecting it to the pump my simulation freezes
after around 700 timesteps or less. I am trying to
create solar domestic hot water system. The
question is, is it possible to create this kind of
control circuit with equations ? I have similar
problems with every control loop i am trying to
create this way. The math should work but
implemented in TRNSYS (TRNSYS 17) the simulation
stick somewhere. <br>
> <br>
> I am no experienced user so maybe someone
could give my some advise how to implement this
kind of control functions right? <br>
> <br>
> i am very grateful for any help or ideas. <br>
> <br>
> thanks in advance <br>
> <br>
> Michael Stochniol <br>
>
_______________________________________________ <br>
> TRNSYS-users mailing list <br>
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</blockquote>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
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To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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Cc: <br>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 11:59:19 -0600<br>
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] (no subject)<br>
As a reminder, to unsubscribe just send a blank email to:<br>
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<br>
On 11/20/2014 9:23 AM, haydar kepekçi wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dont send me e- mail !! I dont want to see ur words about<br>
trnsys !!!<br>
<br>
Sent using CloudMagic<br>
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On Per, Kas 20, 2014 at 4:32 PM, Ben Heymer<br>
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wrote:<br>
<br>
You should look through your "Result" file for the<br>
source of the error.<br>
<br>
A common cause of errors of this type is convergence.<br>
Make sure you<br>
have enough volume in your water loop for at least 1<br>
timestep of water<br>
flow. Sometimes it's also helpful to connect the mass<br>
flow output of<br>
the pump right back to the mass flow input.<br>
<br>
As a last resort, you can relax the convergence<br>
parameters and error<br>
thresholds in the control cards.<br>
<br>
Ben Heymer, PE<br>
<br>
On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 3:52 AM, Michael Stochniol<br>
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wrote:<br>
> Hallo everyone,<br>
><br>
> im trying to create a control function using<br>
equations with logic operators for the control of a<br>
variable speed pump, in order to adjust the massflow<br>
trough the pump. I wrote a control funktion and
plotted<br>
it without connecting it to the pump and it seemed to<br>
work right. But if i am conecting it to the pump my<br>
simulation freezes after around 700 timesteps or less.
I<br>
am trying to create solar domestic hot water system.
The<br>
question is, is it possible to create this kind of<br>
control circuit with equations ? I have similar
problems<br>
with every control loop i am trying to create this
way.<br>
The math should work but implemented in TRNSYS
(TRNSYS<br>
17) the simulation stick somewhere.<br>
><br>
> I am no experienced user so maybe someone could
give<br>
my some advise how to implement this kind of control<br>
functions right?<br>
><br>
> i am very grateful for any help or ideas.<br>
><br>
> thanks in advance<br>
><br>
> Michael Stochniol<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tess-inc.com">http://www.tess-inc.com</a>
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