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Tom,<br>
Good job decreasing the time step and making sure that the zone
capacitance was reasonable! <br>
<br>
Almost all of the controller components in TRNSYS (and in fact
controllers in real life) have a deadband around the setpoint. In
cooling mode, if the set point is 21C, the cooling system might not
start until the temperature reached 21.5C and then it would continue
to operate until the zone temperature got down to 20.5C (or
something like that). Controllers (again both in TRNSYS and in the
real world) also often implement some form of a limit on the number
of oscillations that they may go through in a period of time.
Unfortunately, it is not possible to implement either a limit on
controller state changes or a thermostat dead band using equations.
You may be able to implement a dead band in Excel but it won't be
easy. There is an outside air reset controller (which basically does
the same as your adaptive temperature control) in the TESS Controls
Library (Type1250). If you do not have that component then I would
recommend that you use a Type2 (the instance in the Studio that is
labeled Aquastat: Cooling Mode: Type2-AquastatC) within your
equation to provide yourself with a dead band and a limit on
state-changes. <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/6/2013 05:40, Tom B wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:DUB119-W328279BB506625458E5448A2B90@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
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<div dir="ltr">Dear Marcello,<br>
<br>
you're absolutely right about this, the formula was
unnecessarily complicated. I deleted this variable and the
number of convergence errors decreased indeed, but unfortunately
did not go away completely. <br>
<br>
I also tried looking at it from a different point of view.
According to the list file, the convergence errors occur between
Type 56 and type 62 (calling Excel) which are part of the loop.
Type 62 components outside the loop do not give any problems. Is
there something that makes Type 62 inadequate for loops? And if
so, could I adjust some value or component order to make sure
that I can use Type 62 in a loop?<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr id="stopSpelling">From:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:marcello.caciolo@cofelyaxima-gdfsuez.com">marcello.caciolo@cofelyaxima-gdfsuez.com</a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br>
Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 12:03:57 +0200<br>
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Convergence errors with adaptive
temperature limits<br>
<br>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;">Dear Tom, </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US">Actually you are right, I
misunderstood your question and gave you the same
equation you used.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US">As a second guess, I would say that
your problem is in the definition of the variable
“cooling need”. If I well understand, you compute
cooling need by using the actual temperature calculated
by type 56 and comparing it to your target temperature.
This could be the reason of the bad behavior of your
simulation and it is not necessary. Indeed, if your
actual temperature is lower (in the case of cooling) of
the target temperature, cooling need is zero anyway.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US">Try to remove this variable and
rerun the simulation.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US">Hope this helps.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;" lang="EN-US">Best regards,</span><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="color: rgb(88, 89,
91); font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"; font-size:
11pt;">Marcello Caciolo</span></b><span style="color:
rgb(88, 89, 91); font-family:
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
font-size: 10pt;">De :</span></b><span
style="font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
font-size: 10pt;"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu">mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu</a>] <b>De la
part de</b> Tom B<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> lundi 6 mai 2013 11:53<br>
<b>À :</b> TRNSYS users mailing list at the Solar
Energy Lab, UW-Madison<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Convergence errors
with adaptive temperature limits</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">Dear
Marcello,<br>
<br>
First of all, thank you very much for your response,
it is much appreciated. I tried your formula as well,
but I'm afraid this is not the problem, because it
still gives the same errors. This may be because the
formula is in fact the same, just written down
differently (because the part between brackets is
reversed, the plus turns into a minus). I hope you or
someone else may have another suggestion.<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Tom<br>
</span></p>
<div>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">From: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:marcello.caciolo@cofelyaxima-gdfsuez.com">marcello.caciolo@cofelyaxima-gdfsuez.com</a><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br>
Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 10:50:59 +0200<br>
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Convergence errors with
adaptive temperature limits</span></p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31,
73, 125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";
font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US">Dear Tom,</span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31,
73, 125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";
font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31,
73, 125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";
font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US">I think that your
problem is in the definition of the cooling
temperature. It should read : </span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31,
73, 125); font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";
font-size: 11pt;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">T_Cool_On = 30 -
Cooling_need*Cooling_schedule*(30 -
Target_temperature)</span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">In this way, cooling temperature is
30 when cooling need and/or cooling schedule are
zero, and your target temperature when both
cooling need and cooling schedule are 1.</span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Hope this helps.</span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"
lang="EN-US">Best regards,</span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="color: rgb(88,
89, 91); font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
font-size: 11pt;">Marcello Caciolo</span></b><span
style="color: rgb(88, 89, 91); font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
font-size: 11pt;"><br>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span
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style="font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";
font-size: 10pt;"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu">mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu</a>]
<b>De la part de</b> Tom B<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> samedi 4 mai 2013 13:39<br>
<b>À :</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [TRNSYS-users] Convergence
errors with adaptive temperature limits</span><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">Dear
all,<br>
<br>
In short, I'm facing a problem in which I
would like to use a formula for cooling which
works perfectly for heating, but gives
convergence errors when I apply it to my
cooling temperature. It occurs when I'm using
adaptive temperature limits in an energy
calculation to find the efficiency of a
certain shading device. I tried increasing the
thermal capacitance to 5*1.2*1.007*roomvolume,
the moisture capacitance to 7, I've used time
steps varying from 5 minutes to 1 hour, but
nothing works. Eventually this results in a
fatal error, or if I increase the Limits
drastically it only slows down my simulation
enormously. I'm using Trnsys 17 by the way.<br>
<br>
<strong><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">Problem
description</span></strong></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">I've
used a 4199.1 kJ/h for both heating and
cooling, so given a floor area of 19.44m2 that
would be 60W/m2. I've included a file of a
project where I isolated this adaptive
temperature limit and heating/cooling
schedule, so without any shading. One of them
shows the situation when there are no
convergence errors, but T_Cool_On remains zero
degrees, and the other one where in my mind
the formula is correct, but convergence errors
occur.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">I
think I found where the problem occurs, but I
don't know what I'm doing wrong. I use a loop
from type 56 to an equation, in which the
acceptable indoor temperature depends on the
outside temperature (people tollerate higher
temperatures if it's warm outside as well),
and is compared to the actual indoor
temperature to see whether the cooling/heating
should be on or off. This goes to another
equation to incorporate the annual occupancy
schedule for heating and cooling, which is
then lead back to type 56. <br>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><strong><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">Heating
goes fine, cooling becomes a problem</span></strong><span
style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"><br>
Strangely enough, I use similar formulas for
heating and cooling, and while heating does
not give any problems, the cooling does. This
is what I use:<br>
<br>
T_Heat_On =
Heating_need*Heating_schedule*(Target_temperature
- 15) + 15 --> 'need' and 'schedule' give
either a 0 or 1, and in this way the heating
goes on either when the indoor temperature
drops below the target temperature while the
building is occupied, or when the temperature
drops below 15 degrees at any time.<br>
<br>
T_Cool_On =
Cooling_need*Cooling_schedule*(Target_temperature
- 30) + 30 --> I tried to do the same for
cooling, so it would cool when it would become
too hot, or when the temperature would rise
above 30 degrees when the building is
unoccupied. Strangely enough, this only works
when I leave out the maximum of 30 degrees (so
T_Cool_On =
Cooling_need*Cooling_schedule*Target_temperature),
but if I'm not mistaking, this means that at
times when the building is not occupied or no
cooling is needed, the T_Cool_On is equal to
0, meaning that the heating and cooling start
to compete with each other because the cooling
'wants' a lower temperature than the heating.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">Could
someone please tell me what might cause this
convergence error, and possibly also how to
solve this? Thank you very much in advance!</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";">Kind
regards, Tom<br>
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif";"><br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:+1.608.274.2577
F:+1.608.278.1475
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.tess-inc.com">http://www.tess-inc.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.trnsys.com">http://www.trnsys.com</a></pre>
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