Thanks!<br><br>But I checked <font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">2009 ASHRAE Handbook -
fundamentals (chapter 26.3)</span></font>, it said <span style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">interpolation and moderate extrapolation for air spaces greater than 90 mm are also permissible</span>.<br><br>Therefore, I think we can also set all those almost still air cavity with 1 m thickness as one layer of ground floor in the basement.<br>
<br>Br.<br><br>yang wang<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/23 Jean Marais <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jeannieboef@gmail.com" target="_blank">jeannieboef@gmail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Ideally, yes.<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 November 2012 09:48, 王洋 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com" target="_blank">wanghongyang1767@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dear Marion,<br><br>Thanks for your email!<br><br>But all those air cavity with 1 m thickness is not connected together. They are separated into 11 parts due to 11 zones in the basement.<br>Do you mean like this situation all those air cavity still should be modelled by a zone?<br>
<br>Thanks!<br>Br.<br>yang wang<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/23 Marion Hiller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:hiller@transsolar.com" target="_blank">hiller@transsolar.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<u></u>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Wang,<u></u><u></u></span></font>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB">a cavity of 1m should
definitely be modelled by a zone! <u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB">The “edge” effects
shouldn’t be neglected.<u></u><u></u></span></font>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB">Marion</span></font><u></u><u></u><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy" lang="EN-GB"><u></u><u></u></span></font>
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</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="#005a00" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#005a00;font-weight:bold">Dipl.-Ing.
<u></u>Marion Hiller<u></u> </span></font></b><b><font color="#009900"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#009900;font-weight:bold"><br>
</span></font></b><b><font color="#007000" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#007000;font-weight:bold">TRANSSOLAR:
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49.711.67976.0 <br>
<br>
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Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 <u></u>Stuttgart<u></u> <br>
Amtsgericht <u></u>Stuttgart<u></u> - HRB 23347,
Steuernummer 99073/00911, USt-IdNr.: DE152272639</span></font></b><font color="navy"><span style="color:navy"><u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font color="black" face="Arial" size="1"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold">Geschäftsführer:
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<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">Von:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> 王洋
[mailto:<a href="mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com" target="_blank">wanghongyang1767@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Gesendet:</span></b> Donnerstag, 22. November
2012 16:25<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">An:</span></b> <u></u>Benoit
Delcroix<u></u>; <u></u>trnsys-users<u></u><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Betreff:</span></b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Fwd:
Error creating the wall transfer function coeffients</span></font><u></u><u></u>
</p>
</div><div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></font>
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<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Dear Benoit,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your patient reply!<br>
I saw your attached figure. But there is a new problem. As I said for my first
email, my air layer is about 1m, however, this figure's maximal thickness of
air is only 300 mm. therefore, Whether or not it is right when I still use 4.5
W/m2K your figure said as the air layer's U-value?<br>
<br>
thanks!<br>
Br.<br>
<br>
yang wang<u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">2012/11/21 <u></u>Benoit Delcroix<u></u>
<<a href="mailto:benoit.delcroix@polymtl.ca" target="_blank">benoit.delcroix@polymtl.ca</a>><u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hi, <br>
<br>
The new value is including convection, radiation and conduction (and not only
conduction). There is a reference in English in 2009 ASHRAE Handbook -
fundamentals (chapter 26). The reference I have is in French (a Belgian
regulation on energy performance of buildings). I have attached a jpg file with
the table if you want. The first column is the thickness (in mm). The 3 next
are depending on the heat flux direction (respectively upward, horizontal and
downward). And the values in the table are resistances in m²K/W. The reference
in ASHRAE is a little bit more complicated. <br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Benoit<br>
<br>
Le 2012-11-21 04:27, 王洋 a écrit :<u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Dear Benoit,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your reply!<br>
<br>
I did as you said, i.e. I changed the air U-value from 0.09252 W/m2K into 4.65
W/m2K. Then the min. timebase 2 hours can work. But I'd like to ask you why we
should set this value 4.65 W/m2K? Could you please tell me which reference
literature said? Because I checked the air conductivity as 0.09252 kJ/hmK from
the literature.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
Br.<br>
yang wang<u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">2012/11/20 <u></u>Benoit Delcroix<u></u>
<<a href="mailto:benoit.delcroix@polymtl.ca" target="_blank">benoit.delcroix@polymtl.ca</a>><u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hello,<br>
<br>
To me, I think you should set your air layer as a resistive layer and set the
air U-value to 4.55 - 4.65 W/(m²K) (if there is no ventilation in the basement).
And normally, afterwards, you should be able to decrease the timebase value
(normally 1 hour should be possible). If you want less, split the heaviest
walls with an active layer (probably the roof and groundfloor walls).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Benoit <br>
<br>
Le 2012-11-19 04:31, 王洋 a écrit :<u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" type="cite">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><br>
Dear Leen, Jean, Marion, Benoit and others,<br>
<br>
Many thanks for your reply!<br>
<br>
I checked my Wall's thickness and thermal property etc. again. Why needs it 9
hours as the timebase? I think maybe it is due to my Ground floor (it is the
basement's floor of the building) which includes about 0.99 m's Air Layer.<br>
When I changed it into 0.1 m, the min. timebase 2.5 hours can work without the
ERROR:Error creating the wall transfer function coeffients.<br>
<br>
Therefore, I'd like to ask you, <br>
1) Is it normal for TRNBuild setting how large the timebase is maximally? 5
hours or others?<br>
2) How to solve this problem of the ground floor with about 0.99 m's Air Layer?
But our building project indeed has<br>
the ground floor with about 0.99 m's Air Layer. I can't reduce it into 0.1m? Is
the only way to <font color="#3333ff"><span style="color:#3333ff"> try the
active layer approach of The group of Michael Kummert in Montreal</span></font>?
<br>
<br>
Please see the Attached INF file.<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance!<br>
Br.<br>
<br>
wang<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">2012/11/17 <u></u>Benoit Delcroix<u></u>
<<a href="mailto:benoit.delcroix@polymtl.ca" target="_blank">benoit.delcroix@polymtl.ca</a>><u></u><u></u></span></font>
</p>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Hello,<br>
<br>
I'm one of the students of Michaël Kummert working on a new method to generate
the tranfer functions. I thing I can help you for your problem. As Leen said,
TRNSYS is unable to generate the transfer functions coefficients for a heavy
and insulated wall with a low timebase. In the TRNBuild project, you can modify
that value and increase it to allow TRNSYS to generate the transfer functions.
Actually, TRNSYS is unable to generate the transfer function as soon as the
Fourier number of the wall (thermal diffusivity * timebase / thhickness²) is
lower than 0.0005. To check that, TRNBuild make the sum of one of the
coefficients series (a, b or c). The 3 sums are equal and means, according to
TRNBuild (I don't personally think so...but it's like this), the Fourier
number. <br>
<br>
As Leen said, it exists a trick. You can use an active layer to split the wall
in 2 and then forcing TRNSYS to generate 2 series of transfer functions
coefficients for the same wall. As the 2 parts are thinner, you could use a
better timebase value. When you insert the active layer in the wall, try to
split the layer with the lowest Fourier number. And then to insert the active
layer, use the expert mode that allows you to insert an equivalent conductivity.
Insert the biggest value you can. Like that, the active layer is negligible at
the thermal point of view. Actually, the active layer is acting as a mini-zone
to split the wall. It is a little tricky but it works...before having better
solution.<br>
<br>
Good luck for your project and have a nice week-end,<br>
<br>
Benoit <br>
<br>
Le 2012-11-17 14:43, <a href="mailto:trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu</a> a écrit :<u></u><u></u></span></font>
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