<div>Karol,</div><div> </div><div>the transfer functions have some limitations, especially with heavyweight largely insulated constructions. You can check out the old TRNSYS manuals to find out more.</div><div>The group of Michael Kummert in Montreal is doing more research to try to lower the timeconstant. They found a trick to lower the time constant. That was by adding an active layer (that is not used) in the heavyweight layer. That way, the transfer function coefficients are calculated differently, allowing a lower value of the time base. I have done some test runs with different time steps and, as expected, it does influence the results. In my case I tested a configuration with time base of 2 versus 5 hours. The deviation on the energy consumption was up to 10% for a specific room.</div>
<div>9 hours is way too high, so try the active layer approach. </div><div> </div><div>leen</div><div> </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 6:28 PM, 王洋 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com" target="_blank">wanghongyang1767@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear leen,<br><br>Thanks for your email!<br>I tried till 9 hours as the TIMEBASE which can work. But could you please tell me the detailed reasons for that? i.e. why we need so large TIMEBASE 9 hours to meet its Stability Criteria?
<div><br><br>Thanks in advance!<br>Br.<br>wang<br><br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/16 王洋 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com" target="_blank">wanghongyang1767@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">Dear leen,<br><br>Thanks for your email!<br>I tried till 9 hours as the TIMEBASE which can work. But could you please tell me the detailed reasons for that? i.e. why we need so large TIMEBASE 9 hours to meet its Stability Criteria?
<div><br><br>Thanks in advance!<br>Br.<br>wang<br><br></div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/15 leen peeters <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:l.f.r.peeters@gmail.com" target="_blank">l.f.r.peeters@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">Can you open in TRNBUILD the 'project' window, and consequently the 'outputs', change the timebase for calculation of your transfer function to something higher. I think it is standard on 2 hour, change it into 5, check. If it works, then try 4, ..... until you reach the lowest possible number
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 10:28 PM, 王洋 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com" target="_blank">wanghongyang1767@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">Dear all,<br><br>I have a question about *.BUI file. I create a project with about 30 zones using TRNSYS 16.<br>
Before I created the seventeenth zone using the same exterior wall and floor as well as interior wall etc for the project, it worked well. But when the seventeenth zone created, it appeared an ERROR in TRNBuild: <span style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">Error creating the wall transfer function coeffients</span>. Please see the attached figure. The second file is its INF file.<br>
<br>If you had some relative experience, PLEASE tell me how to solve with this problem.<br><br>Thanks in advance!<br>Br.<br>wang<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">王洋</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com" target="_blank">wanghongyang1767@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Date: 2012/11/15<br>Subject: Error creating the wall transfer function coeffients<br>To: <a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br><br><br>Dear all,<br><br>I have a question about *.BUI file. I create a project with about 30 zones using TRNSYS 16.<br>
Before I created the seventeenth zone using the same exterior wall and floor as well as interior wall etc for the project, it worked well. But when the seventeenth zone created, it appeared an ERROR in TRNBuild: <span style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">Error creating the wall transfer function coeffients</span>. Please see the attached figure. The second file is its INF file.<br>
<br>If you had some relative experience, PLEASE tell me how to solve with this problem.<br><br>Thanks in advance!<br>Br.<br><br>wang<br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/11/12 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu</a>></span><br>
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<br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of TRNSYS-users digest..."<br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Type 15-2: Relationship between data arrangements,<br>
simulation times and convergence (David BRADLEY)<br> 2. simulation trend opposite to reality (validation)<br> (Karol Bandurski)<br><br><br>---------- 已转发邮件 ----------<br>From: David BRADLEY <<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>><br>
To: Flynn Ciaran <<a href="mailto:ciaran.flynn@aalto.fi" target="_blank">ciaran.flynn@aalto.fi</a>><br>Cc: "<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a>" <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a>><br>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 11:09:38 -0600<br>Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Type 15-2: Relationship between data arrangements, simulation times and convergence<br>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span lang="EN-US">Ciarán,<br> Option 1) is incorrect. Type15 is intended to be used with year-long weather files that have a 1-hour data interval. The component knows from the simulation start and stop time what day of the year it is, so if you trick it by setting the simulation start time to hour zero and rearrange the weather file to start in the middle of the year, what the Type calculates about the sunup and sundown times and what the data file says is happening are not going to match at all. Option 2 is the only correct one.<br>
Best,<br> David<br> <br><br></span>
<div>On 11/12/2012 06:32, Flynn Ciaran wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hello,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I have a couple of questions concerning the relationship between the arrangement of data in TMY2 weather files, TRNSYS simulation times and convergence errors. I tried looking at the source code but I could not figure out the answer..<br>
I am running a simulation for one year, using Type 15-2 for weather, starting at 1h on July 1<sup>st</sup> and ending at 24h on June 30<sup>th</sup>. This leaves me with two options: <br>1) Either I rearrange the tm2 file to start at 1h on the 1<sup>st</sup> of July and end at 24h on June 30<sup>th</sup>, and set the simulation start and stop times to 0 and 8760h respectively, or <br>
2) Either I leave the weather file as it is and set the simulation start and stop times at 4344h and 13104h respectively.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">When I use a provided weather file (e.g. CA-BC-Vancouver-718920.tm2) and set the simulation time step at 0.1h, I get the following:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0cm 5.4pt;border:1pt solid windowtext;width:42.15pt" valign="top" width="56">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:106.3pt" width="142">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">Failed convergence time steps<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:184.3pt" width="246">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">Time steps where: <br>calculated total horizontal radiation > horizontal extraterrestrial radiation<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:120.45pt" width="161">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">Time steps where: <br>direct normal radiation > solar constant<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:1pt 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:solid solid solid none;border-color:windowtext windowtext windowtext currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:177.2pt" width="236">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">Time steps where: <br>calculated horizontal beam radiation > total horizontal radiation<u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:42.15pt" valign="top" width="56">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">1)<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:106.3pt" width="142">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">7719<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:184.3pt" width="246">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">10664<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:120.45pt" width="161">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">124<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:177.2pt" width="236">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">3498<u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr>
<tr>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt;border-style:none solid solid;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:42.15pt" valign="top" width="56">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">2)<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:106.3pt" width="142">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">6424<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:184.3pt" width="246">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">-<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:120.45pt" width="161">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">-<u></u><u></u></span></p></td>
<td style="border-width:medium 1pt 1pt medium;border-style:none solid solid none;border-color:currentColor;padding:0cm 5.4pt;width:177.2pt" width="236">
<p style="text-align:center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span lang="EN-US">13<u></u><u></u></span></p></td></tr></tbody></table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So my question are:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><span>-<span style="font:7pt/normal "Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US">Why is TRNSYS giving different error messages if the same weather data are used ? (I believe that there are no other types in my file that could explain the reason for this)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><span>-<span style="font:7pt/normal "Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US">What parameters do the radiation values calculated by TRNSYS depend on and how are they calculated? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><span>-<span style="font:7pt/normal "Times New Roman";font-size-adjust:none;font-stretch:normal"> </span></span></span><span lang="EN-US">What is the best approach in this situation (minimal radiation errors)?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks a lot,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Ciarán<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><br>
<fieldset></fieldset> <br><pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre></blockquote><br><pre cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.274.2577" target="_blank" value="+16082742577">+1.608.274.2577</a>
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<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>
<a href="http://www.tess-inc.com/" target="_blank">http://www.tess-inc.com</a>
<a href="http://www.trnsys.com/" target="_blank">http://www.trnsys.com</a></pre></div><br><br>---------- 已转发邮件 ----------<br>From: "Karol Bandurski" <<a href="mailto:karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl" target="_blank">karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a>>, <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>Cc: <br>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:22:45 +0100<br>
Subject: [TRNSYS-users] simulation trend opposite to reality (validation)<br>
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I simulate the dwelling in TRNSYS. Last time a try to validate my model and I compare simulation results with measurements.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u>Heat consumption</u></b> has been measured in dwelling every week (the same day of week and the same hour).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Trnsys simulation generate results for dwelling’s model with ideal heating assumptions (set temperature 20/21) –NTYPE2 (sensible <b><u>energy demand</u></b>).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Total <b><u>heat consumption (measurements)</u></b> of dwelling and <b><u>energy demand (simulation)</u></b> of simulated model are quite similar (36 weeks from September to June), but if we look on weekly results there are bigger difference with interesting regularity:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">if <b><u>heat consumption</u></b> decreases from one week to the next, then <b><u>energy demand</u></b> increase, and vice versa (I enclose graph).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Could you tell me what can cause this lack of coincidence?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I will be grateful for any hints!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karol<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">------------------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Karol Bandurski MSc.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white" lang="PL"><a href="http://www.ee.put.poznan.pl/" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none" lang="EN-US">Institute of Environmental Engineering</span></a></span><span style="background:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white">Poznan University of Technology<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white" lang="PL"><a href="http://www.ee.put.poznan.pl/" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue" lang="EN-US">www.ee.put.poznan.pl</span></a></span><span style="background:white"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white" lang="PL"><a href="http://www.put.poznan.pl/" target="_blank"><span style="color:blue">www.put.poznan.pl</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>TRNSYS-users mailing list<br><a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br>
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