Dear David,<br><div class="gmail_quote"><br>Many thanks for your patient reply!<br><br>1. Since the time step of our own weather data which includes outdoor temperature, relative humidity and global radiation etc. is 1 min., therefore, I define the simulation step is also 1 min. <br>
<div class="im">
<br><span style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">you should NOT use Type9 to interpolate solar radiation data.</span><br></div>Do you mean I should not use Type 9e to interpolate to read our own radiation data? I did (I set that option “interpolate or not” as -1) as you said, but the both (interpolate or not) simulation results seem like <b>the completely same</b>. I do not know why. <br>
<div class="im">
<br><span style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">which is a poor assumption for the way in which solar radiation behaves over an hour.</span><br></div>Do you mean the total simulation time is over an hour or the simulation step is over an hour?<br>
<br>2.Yes. I already first run a simulation with only Type 9 and Type 65. After plotting out all those values, I make sure that they should be treated correctly.<div class="im"><br><br><span style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">It can be somewhat tricky to set the "average or instantaneous value" parameter and the "interpolate or not" parameters</span><br>
</div>
Could you please tell me some tips for setting those parameters?<br><br>Since we only know total horizontal radiation, south and east radiation from our weather station, I use Type 16a with Mode = 1. Our solar radiation unit is W/m2, so I multiply 3.6 to transform into kJ/hm2.<div class="im">
<br>
<br><span style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">again, there are some parameters that can be challenging to set correctly.</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br></div>Yes. Could you please tell me some tips for setting them of Type 16? I only changed Latitude and Shift in solar time, others are default values.<br>
<br>Please see the attached .tpf and .bui as well as our weather data.<div class="im HOEnZb"><br>Many thanks in advance!<br><br>Br.<br>wang<br><br><br></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_quote">2012/10/29 David BRADLEY <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Wang,<br>
As it says in all of the"More" button comments for the Type9
"Interpolate or not" parameter and also in the mathematical
description of Type9, you should NOT use Type9 to interpolate solar
radiation data. Type9 interpolates linearly, which is a poor
assumption for the way in which solar radiation behaves over an
hour. Furthermore, the point of Type16 (solar radiation processor)
is to carry out an interpolation of solar radiation for timesteps
smaller than an hour.<br>
<br>
I would highly recommend that you run a simulation with ONLY Type9
and Type65. Plot out all of the values that you are reading from
your file and make sure that they are all being treated correctly.
It can be somewhat tricky to set the "average or instantaneous
value" parameter and the "interpolate or not" parameters. Only after
you have verified the data is being read in properly should you then
adda Type16 to the project to make sure that solar radiation is
being processed correctly; again, there are some parameters that can
be challenging to set correctly.<br>
Regards,<br>
David<div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/29/2012 05:17, 王洋 wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">dear all,<br>
<br>
I would like to ask you a question about solar radiation. I met an
error as follows. I used Type 9e to import our own solar radiation
data whose unit is W/m2, meantime, I also used an Equation to
transfer its unit to kJ/hm2 (i.e. xx*3.6) and used ABS to ensure
its value as Positive connected with Type 16a (Radiation
processors). But it still appears the error as follows. Please
tell me how could I solve this problem? E.g. use which Type I
should use more easily and correctly and what are the detailed
processes to import our own solar radiation to connect with Type
56?<br>
<br>
*** Fatal Error at time : 3820.800000<br>
Generated by Unit : 56<br>
Generated by Type : 56<br>
Message : Negative value of solar radiation
for 5orientation encountered<br>
<br>
<br>
Many thanks in advance!<br>
Br.<br>
wang<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/10/26 王洋 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com" target="_blank">wanghongyang1767@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">dear all,<br>
<br>
I would like to ask you a question about solar radiation. I
met an error as follows. I used Type 9e to import our own
solar radiation data whose unit is W/m2, meantime, I also used
an Equation to transfer its unit to kJ/hm2 (i.e. xx*3.6) and
used ABS to ensure its value as Positive. But it still appears
the error as follows. Please tell me how could I solve this
problem? E.g. use which Type I should use more easily and what
are the detailed processes to import our own solar radiation
to connect with Type 56?<br>
<br>
*** Fatal Error at time : 3820.800000<br>
Generated by Unit : 56<br>
Generated by Type : 56<br>
Message : Negative value of solar radiation
for 5orientation encountered<br>
<br>
<br>
Many thanks in advance!<br>
Br.<br>
wang<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/10/26 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Max. time points of Type 14 in TRNSYS 16 (??)<br>
<br>
<br>
---------- 已转发邮件 ----------<br>
From: 王洋 <<a href="mailto:wanghongyang1767@gmail.com" target="_blank">wanghongyang1767@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br>
Cc: <br>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:27:38 +0200<br>
Subject: [TRNSYS-users] Max. time points of Type 14 in
TRNSYS 16<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I'd like to ask you whether or not max. time points of
Type 14 is only 20 in TRNSYS 16?<br>
If I need more than 20 points, how could I solve this
problem?<br>
<br>
Many thanks in advance!<br>
<br>
Br<br>
<br>
wang<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2012/10/26 <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users-request@cae.wisc.edu</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Type energy balance (David BRADLEY)<br>
2. Re: Type energy balance (Micha?l Kummert)<br>
<br>
<br>
---------- 已转发邮件 ----------<br>
From: David BRADLEY <<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>><br>
To: PARTENAY Vincent <<a href="mailto:vincent.partenay@cstb.fr" target="_blank">vincent.partenay@cstb.fr</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a>" <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a>><br>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:34:28 -0500<br>
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Type energy balance<br>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Vincent,<br>
When you perform an energy balance on a tank, you
need to take into account its change in temperature
between the beginning and the end of the simulation
(output 7 of your Type4). If the tank ends up hotter
at the end of the simulation than it was at the
beginning, it has stored some energy. If it ends up
colder, then it has given up some energy. I would
imagine that with 10 nodes, there is some
stratification developing in the tank that is not
modeled when you have a fully mixed tank (1 node)<br>
Best,<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 10/25/2012 09:40, PARTENAY Vincent wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Typ4a
(Storage tank) allows to model a stratified
tank with several temperature nodes. The
problem I noticed is that the energy balance
of both sides on the tank can vary depending
on the chosen timestep :</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In the
attached file, a simplified example, the
tank is coupled to an energy production and
energy consumption model (very simple in an
equation). Thermal losses of the tank is set
to zero.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">When I
run a simulation with one node (1m height
for 0.5m3) for the tank and a timestep of
0.1hr, I get the same energy on both side
(see plotter “”Power&NRJ”, Esource =
2659kWh and Eload = 2666kWh), slight
difference maybe explained by initial
charging period to setpoint temperature.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">When I
run it in the same conditions but with 10
nodes (each 0.1m), these two energy are
different ! While I still have 2666kWh for
Eload I have 3146kWh !</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">When I
run it again reducing the timestep from
0.1hr to 0.001 hr, still with 10 nodes, I
get 2666kWh, the energy balance is ok…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So, my
question is : is it necessary to check
before every bigger simulation (that can
include lots of tank models) the energy
balance of this model for one defined
timestep and boundary conditions to the
model or is there some rules to predefine
adapted discretisation for one given
timestep ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind
regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Vincent
PARTENAY</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Energies
Renouvelables - Département ESE</span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0000a1">Centre
Scientifique et Technique du Bâtiment</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">290
Route des Lucioles BP 209 – F 06904 Sophia
Antipolis Cedex</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Tél
: <a href="tel:%2B33-%280%294-93-95-67-21" value="+33493956721" target="_blank">+33-(0)4-93-95-67-21</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Fax
: <a href="tel:%2B33-%280%294-93-95-64-31" value="+33493956431" target="_blank">+33-(0)4-93-95-64-31</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#008100">Évitez
d’imprimer vos emails inutilement.
Respectez l’environnement</span></b><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
TRNSYS-users mailing list
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.274.2577" value="+16082742577" target="_blank">+1.608.274.2577</a>
F:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.278.1475" value="+16082781475" target="_blank">+1.608.278.1475</a>
<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>
<a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" target="_blank">http://www.tess-inc.com</a>
<a href="http://www.trnsys.com" target="_blank">http://www.trnsys.com</a></pre>
</div>
<br>
<br>
---------- 已转发邮件 ----------<br>
From: "Michaël Kummert" <<a href="mailto:michael.kummert@gmail.com" target="_blank">michael.kummert@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 18:19:39 -0400<br>
Subject: Re: [TRNSYS-users] Type energy balance<br>
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">If
the energy (de)stored between the initial and
final state cannot explain the differences, I
think there is another possible cause: Type 4
can have quite large energy balance errors
when the nodes are “flushed out” during one
time step. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Here
is my understanding: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">If
you have 10 nodes and a total volume of 500 L,
that means each node holds 50 L of water.
Using 0.1 h time steps you cannot have a
flowrate through the tank higher than 500 L/h,
otherwise you will replace the entire volume
of a node within a time step, and the
equations used by Type 4 are not valid
anymore. This would explain that it works
again when you reduce the timestep (with 0.001
h you would need a flowrate of 50000 L/h to
“flush” a node out).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">To
my knowledge this problem is specific to Type
4, i.e. it does not affect the Storage tanks
in the TESS libraries (Type 534 etc.) – if you
have access to them that may be a more
practical solution than running 0.001 h
timesteps…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Michaël
Kummert</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Polytechnique
Montréal</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext" lang="EN-US"> <a href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David BRADLEY<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 25, 2012
17:34<br>
<b>To:</b> PARTENAY Vincent<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Type
energy balance</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Vincent,<br>
When you perform an energy balance on a tank,
you need to take into account its change in
temperature between the beginning and the end of
the simulation (output 7 of your Type4). If the
tank ends up hotter at the end of the simulation
than it was at the beginning, it has stored some
energy. If it ends up colder, then it has given
up some energy. I would imagine that with 10
nodes, there is some stratification developing
in the tank that is not modeled when you have a
fully mixed tank (1 node)<br>
Best,<br>
David<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/25/2012 09:40,
PARTENAY Vincent wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Typ4a
(Storage tank) allows to model a stratified
tank with several temperature nodes. The
problem I noticed is that the energy balance
of both sides on the tank can vary depending
on the chosen timestep :</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In the
attached file, a simplified example, the
tank is coupled to an energy production and
energy consumption model (very simple in an
equation). Thermal losses of the tank is set
to zero.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">When I
run a simulation with one node (1m height
for 0.5m3) for the tank and a timestep of
0.1hr, I get the same energy on both side
(see plotter “”Power&NRJ”, Esource =
2659kWh and Eload = 2666kWh), slight
difference maybe explained by initial
charging period to setpoint temperature.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">When I
run it in the same conditions but with 10
nodes (each 0.1m), these two energy are
different ! While I still have 2666kWh for
Eload I have 3146kWh !</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US">When I run it again
reducing the timestep from 0.1hr to 0.001
hr, still with 10 nodes, I get 2666kWh, the
energy balance is ok…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So, my
question is : is it necessary to check
before every bigger simulation (that can
include lots of tank models) the energy
balance of this model for one defined
timestep and boundary conditions to the
model or is there some rules to predefine
adapted discretisation for one given
timestep ?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind
regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Vincent
PARTENAY</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Energies
Renouvelables - Département ESE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0000a1">Centre
Scientifique et Technique du Bâtiment</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">290
Route des Lucioles BP 209 – F 06904 Sophia
Antipolis Cedex</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Tél
: <a href="tel:%2B33-%280%294-93-95-67-21" value="+33493956721" target="_blank">+33-(0)4-93-95-67-21</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Fax
: <a href="tel:%2B33-%280%294-93-95-64-31" value="+33493956431" target="_blank">+33-(0)4-93-95-64-31</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#008100">Évitez
d’imprimer vos emails inutilement.
Respectez l’environnement</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<pre>-- </pre>
<pre>***************************</pre>
<pre>David BRADLEY</pre>
<pre>Principal</pre>
<pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC</pre>
<pre>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370</pre>
<pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>P:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.274.2577" value="+16082742577" target="_blank">+1.608.274.2577</a></pre>
<pre>F:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.278.1475" value="+16082781475" target="_blank">+1.608.278.1475</a></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a></pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com" target="_blank">http://www.tess-inc.com</a></pre>
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<pre cols="72">--
***************************
David BRADLEY
Principal
Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC
22 North Carroll Street - suite 370
Madison, WI 53703 USA
P:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.274.2577" value="+16082742577" target="_blank">+1.608.274.2577</a>
F:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.278.1475" value="+16082781475" target="_blank">+1.608.278.1475</a>
<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com" target="_blank">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>
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