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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=FR link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Jeannieboef,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am really interested in modelisation of heat exchange of a building with the ground. Could you post the reference you mentioned?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>By the way, you say “the added accuracy [of modeling heat exchange with the ground] to yearly energy consumption is not that big”. Could you precise if this sentence is based on your feeling, on your experience or on some published results? In my experience, it really depends on the building type and on the ratio between height and floor area.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Thank you for your help.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#58595B'>Marcello Caciolo</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#58595B'><br></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#58595B'>Responsable Outils et Méthodes d'Analyse Energétique</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#58595B'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'><img width=170 height=62 id="Image_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CD5A91.337955C0" alt="cid:image003.jpg@01CD4E08.954D04D0"><br><b><br></b>Cellule Efficacité Energétique et Environnementale - Pôle Projets et Réalisations<br>46 Boulevard de la Prairie au Duc<br>BP 40119 - 44201 Nantes Cedex 02</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'>Tél.: +33 02 40 41 06 57</span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br><a href="mailto:prenom.nom@aximaseitha-gdfsuez.com"><span style='color:blue'>marcello.caciolo@cofelyaxima-gdfsuez.com</span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:gray'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#339966'>P</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:#339966'> </span><b><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#339966'>Pensez à l'environnement avant d'imprimer ce message</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu [mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu] <b>De la part de</b> jeannieboef<br><b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 4 juillet 2012 18:41<br><b>À :</b> Herve Gaël<br><b>Cc :</b> trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Air treatment unit / ground temperature model<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Just to re-itterate one of my favourite subjects...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The ground temperature objects are good to use with anytype of ground heat exchanger (for example the two mentioned by David, namely earth tubes and Geothermal). It should, however not be used as the boundry condition on the ground bounding contructions of conditioned spaces. This is inaccurate and a mistake I am seeing often by Trnsys users. If using a constant value, I suggest the mean (day + night) monthly conditioned space temperature minus 2 Kelvin, for bounding constructions in the range of 150 to 300 mm without insulation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you want to accurately model this, I suggest using the slab/basement types that do the 3d calculation for this. If you are a begginer, don't focus your efforts here as the added accuracy to yearly energy consuption is not that big. If you do use the complex modelling types also bear in mind the effects of ground water level on apparent soil temps.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If anyone is really interested, I can post the links to some papers about this topic when I'm back at my desk tomorrow.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>---<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 04.07.2012, at 14:00, Herve Gaël <<a href="mailto:G.Herve@ciat.fr">G.Herve@ciat.fr</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Francis,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You want to analyze your energy performance in heating and cooling, so first of all, I think you should do two separate simulations, one in heating and the other in cooling mode.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I suppose that what you need to know is the power injected by your terminal unit in each room depending of the delta of temperature between the set point and the real temperature. You don’t need to know the blowing temperature and the flow rate… I think your solution is creating a multi dimensional data interpolation in a file function of water temperature, speed of blowing, etc… </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I hope this can help!</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>___________________________________</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Gaël HERVE</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ingénieur Numéricien LQAI</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Avenue Jean Falconnier</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>01350 CULOZ</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tél: +33 (0)4 79 42 64 30</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fax : +33 (0)4 79 42 40 13 </span><o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu</a> [<a href="mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu">mailto:trnsys-users-bounces@cae.wisc.edu</a>] <b>De la part de</b> Francis KERBER<br><b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 4 juillet 2012 08:37<br><b>À :</b> David BRADLEY<br><b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br><b>Objet :</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Air treatment unit / ground temperature model</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear David and Jean,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Many thanks for your answer. I just need the ground temperature to modelise my basement. In my bui. I use an input Tsoil for "boundary userdefined" that's all. I will use your values if I don't find any.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Otherwise to answer Jean question, I want to modelise to analyse energy performance, and to compare to reality my heat and cool needs.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Many thanks.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hope u will be able to answer to my second question about my air treatment unit and the final regulation system.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Francis<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>2012/7/3 David BRADLEY <<a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a>><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Francis,<br> There is no difference between Type77 and Type501. The component started out in the TESS Libraries as Type501 but was donated to the standard library and given a new number. It is still in the TESS Libraries for backward compatibility. The thing to remember about that model is that it is an undisturbed ground temperature model meaning that no matter how much energy you remove from the ground or add to the ground, the ground temperature will only ever be a function of the time of year. If you are using this in a geothermal application where you are rejecting energy to the ground and removing energy from the ground, the ground temperature will be impacted and you should look at using Type557. If you are drawing air through tubes in the ground then you should look at using Type460 (Pierre Holmuller's earth duct model as implemented by Transsolar)<br><br> If you aren't able to find data for Type501 then the following will get you started: For the mean soil temperature, use the average annual air temperature for your location. For the amplitude, plot out the monthly average temperature for your location and calculate the biggest difference between the average annual temperature and the monthly average temperatures. For the time shift, use 30.<br><br>Best,<br> David <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On 7/2/2012 09:21, Francis KERBER wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I'm quite new on trnsys and I have few questions about my modelisation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Firstable, I'd like to simulate the ground temperature instead of using a constant, which is less precise. I heard about type 501 and type 77. Is there any difference between those types? Which one is the best? Moreover, where to find the informations the type needs as inputs, like mean soil temperature, amplitude of Paris...?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>My project includes a Air treatment unit with a wheel heat exchanger, two fans, and two batteries (warm water and cold water batteries). I get a final regulation system, wich is a ventilating and cooling or heating system (by warm water and cold water batteries as well), depending on the set temperature. I do understand the system but I don't really know how to modelise it. Is ther any existing type I can use? Should I detail each system like my fans, my batteries...which seems to be complicated.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Moreover if I have this final regulation system in each room, must I create as much types as number of rooms?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If u have any idea that would be helpful!!!!!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks a lot for ur answers<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Francis.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>TRNSYS-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu">TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users">https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users</a><o:p></o:p></pre></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>***************************<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Principal<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>P:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.274.2577" target="_blank">+1.608.274.2577</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>F:<a href="tel:%2B1.608.278.1475" target="_blank">+1.608.278.1475</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.trnsys.com">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>TRNSYS-users mailing list<br><a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu">TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users">https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></body></html>