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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Johannes and Leen,<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>thanks for pointing out
the confusion about the active layer boundary conditions due to mistakes in the
manual documentation.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I checked the equations
with the original literature and the code.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The base equation is for
all three systems is Eq. 5.4.4.-15:<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><img width=265 height=93
id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CCBBF2.6031D4E0"><o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For the following
boundary conditions<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><img width=188 height=73
id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image002.jpg@01CCBBF2.6031D4E0"><o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>the summation can be
neglected and yield to Eq. 5.4.4. -16 (which is wrong in the manual!)<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><img width=130 height=65
id="_x0000_i1030" src="cid:image003.jpg@01CCBBF2.6031D4E0"><o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For the capillary tube
system the “ln” can be replaced by 1/3 if <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><img width=54 height=40
id="_x0000_i1031" src="cid:image004.jpg@01CCBBF2.6031D4E0">is less than
1.85718.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thus, for both capillary tube
system and ordinary TAB the above mentioned conditions have to be valid!<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For the floor heating the
conditions are the same for layer 1 with d<sub>1</sub>, For layer 2 with d<sub>2</sub>
different condition apply. <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(On page 5-187 of the
manual there is a mistake: the “lower then” has to be “greater
then” for the condition of d<sub>1</sub>!)<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><img width=633
height=243 id="_x0000_i1033" src="cid:image005.jpg@01CCBBF2.6031D4E0"><o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The conditions are
checked by entering the layers in TRNbuild.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Further details about the
model can be found in the following book (it is written in German):<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>„Thermoaktive Systeme tabs“
von Markus Koschenz und Beat Lehmann, 2000<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If you are interessted I
can double check if you can buy the book at Transsolar.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Marion</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>P.S.: We will upate the documentation
for the next release.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color="#005a00" face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#005A00;font-weight:bold'>Dipl.-Ing.
</span></font></b><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><b><font size=2 color="#005a00"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#005A00;
font-weight:bold'>Marion Hiller</span></font></b></st1:PersonName><b><font
size=2 color="#005a00" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:#005A00;font-weight:bold'> </span></font></b><b><font size=2
color="#009900"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:#009900;font-weight:bold'><br>
</span></font></b><b><font size=2 color="#007000" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#007000;font-weight:bold'>TRANSSOLAR:
KlimaEngineering - Technologien für energieeffizientes Bauen und Nutzerkomfort
in Gebäude </span></font></b><b><font size=1 color="#005a00" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:#005A00;font-weight:bold'><br>
Munich - New York - Stuttgart + 49.711.67976.0 <br>
<br>
</span></font></b><b><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Transsolar
Energietechnik GmbH, Curiestrasse 2, 70563 Stuttgart <br>
Amtsgericht Stuttgart - HRB 23347, Steuernummer 99073/00911, USt-IdNr.:
DE152272639</span></font></b><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 color=black face=Arial><span
style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:bold'>Geschäftsführer:
Dipl.Ing. Matthias Schuler, Dipl.Ing. <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Thomas Auer</st1:PersonName>,
Dipl.Phys. Stefan Holst, Prof. Dipl.-Ing. Bleicher <o:p></o:p></span></font></b>
</p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Von:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> leen peeters [mailto:l.f.r.peeters@gmail.com]
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Gesendet:</span></b> Dienstag, 13. </span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Dezember
2011 20:08<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>An:</span></b> Schrade, Johannes<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Betreff:</span></b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] TRNBLD
- active layer - Thickness of adjacent layers</span></font><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font>
</p>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>Johannes,<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I know they violate one another. As I cannot access
the code of type 56, I cannot check the implementation. We are currently
working on finding out where the limits of the model are ...<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>The model is based on an EMPA model, but there are no
international publications I found that really discuss the implementation of
the active layer model.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>It is a numerical derivation, so emperics are not the
cause. I will get back to you once I figured out more.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:12.0pt'>Leen<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Schrade, Johannes
<</span><a href="mailto:Johannes.Schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de"><span
lang=EN-GB>Johannes.Schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de</span></a></font><span
lang=EN-GB>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<div vlink=purple link=blue>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Dear Leen, dear TRNSYS users,</span></font><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your quick reply.</span></font><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>However, I’m not really satisfied with
your suggestion, as I want to understand the reason behind it.</span></font><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>If you are right, I violated the requirement
“outside diameter over pipe distance < 0.2”. But, this
requirement is completely independent from the layer thickness of the adjacent
layer, isn’t it?</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>On the other side, if both adjacent layers
must be conform to the minimum thickness of 0.3 times pipe spacing, I would
have caused a violation of this requirement by setting the pipe spacing to 24
cm and the layer thickness to 8mm. But for this, I didn’t receive any
warning.</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Last but not least, there are oppositional
specifications for the required ratio between thickness of adjacent layer(s)
and pipe spacing in the TRNBLD user manual. On page 5-186 the ratio should be
greater than 0.3, on page 5-187 the ratio should be equal or smaller than 0.3
and on page 5-59 the ratio should be equal or greater than 0.3. So, nearly all
possibilities are mentioned. I’m a bit confused.</span></font><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Looking forward to some light into the dark,</span></font><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Kind regards,</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Johannes Schrade</span></font><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
style='margin-left:3.0pt;border-collapse:collapse'>
<tr>
<td style='border:solid gray 1.0pt;border-right:none;padding:7.5pt 7.5pt 7.5pt 7.5pt'>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
style='margin-left:3.0pt;border-collapse:collapse'>
<tr>
<td style='border:solid gray 1.5pt;padding:3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><b><font size=1 color="#1f497d"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D;
font-weight:bold'>Johannes Schrade</span></font></b><font size=1
color="#1f497d" face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:#1F497D'><br>
Abteilung Wärmetechnik</span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><font size=1 color="#1f497d"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D'>Fraunhofer-Institut
für Bauphysik<br>
Nobelstr. 12<br>
70569 Stuttgart</span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><font size=1 color="#1f497d"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D'><a
href="mailto:johannes.schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">johannes.schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
Telefon 0711 / 970-3416<br>
Telefax 0711 / 970-3399<br>
<a href="http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/wt/" target="_blank">www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/wt/</a></span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
<td style='border:solid gray 1.0pt;border-left:none;padding:7.5pt 7.5pt 7.5pt 7.5pt'>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
style='margin-left:3.0pt;border-collapse:collapse'>
<tr>
<td style='border:solid gray 1.5pt;padding:3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><b><font size=1 color="#1f497d"
face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold'>Johannes Schrade</span></font></b><font
size=1 color="#1f497d" face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D'><br>
Department Heat Technology </span></font><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><font size=1 color="#1f497d"
face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:#1F497D'>Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics<br>
Nobelstr. </span></font><font size=1 color="#1f497d" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D'>12<br>
70569 Stuttgart, Germany</span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><font size=1 color="#1f497d"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D'><a
href="mailto:johannes.schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">johannes.schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
Phone <a href="tel:%2B49%20711%20%2F%20970-3416" target="_blank"
value="+497119703416">+49 711 / 970-3416</a><br>
Fax <a href="tel:%2B49%20711%20%2F%20970-3399" target="_blank"
value="+497119703399">+49 711 / 970-3399</a><br>
<a href="http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/wt/" target="_blank">www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/wt/</a></span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>Von:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> leen peeters [mailto:<a
href="mailto:l.f.r.peeters@gmail.com" target="_blank">l.f.r.peeters@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Gesendet:</span></b> Montag, 12. </span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Dezember
2011 22:09<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>An:</span></b> Schrade, Johannes<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> </span></font><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><a
href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank"><span lang=EN-GB>trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</span></a></span></font><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Betreff:</span></b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] TRNBLD
- active layer - Thickness of adjacent layers</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Johannes,<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>as soon
as you decrease the distance between the pipes, you come closer to the limits
set regarding the modeling of the heat transfer in the direction of the water
flow (direction z in the mathematical model). The stability of that model
requires that you achieve a certain boundary condition, which is a.o. function
of the thermal resistance of the water-pipe-inter pipe distance. In order to
ensure these boundary conditions are satisfied the ratio of pipe outside
diameter over pipe distance < 0.2 AND the ratios of layer thickness over
pipe distance > 0.3. The 0.024-value you received for the minimum layer
thickness comes from this limitation. I assume the extra measure is invoked
once you come close to the 0.2-limit.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>As soon
as you take 0.1 for the pipe distance, you can again select 0.008 m for layer
thickness ...<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Playing
around with conductivity or capacity does not help, as the measure seems to be
implemented through the above limits only ....<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Leen<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Mon,
Dec 12, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Schrade, Johannes <<a
href="mailto:Johannes.Schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">Johannes.Schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Dear
TRNSYS users,<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have
some problems with the active layer module of TRNBLD, which I used for modeling
a floor heating system.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>The
active layers, which should be displayed in the model, are defined as
following:<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Layer
1:<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p><font size=3 face=Symbol><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Symbol'>·</span></font><font size=1><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span></font><span
lang=EN-US>Pipe spacing: 24 cm<o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p><font size=3 face=Symbol><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Symbol'>·</span></font><font size=1><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span></font><span
lang=EN-US>Pipe outside diameter: 16 mm<o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p><font size=3 face=Symbol><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Symbol'>·</span></font><font size=1><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span></font><span
lang=EN-US>Pipe wall thickness: 2 mm<o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Layer
2:<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p><font size=3 face=Symbol><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Symbol'>·</span></font><font size=1><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span></font><span
lang=EN-US>Pipe spacing: 8 cm<o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p><font size=3 face=Symbol><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Symbol'>·</span></font><font size=1><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span></font><span
lang=EN-US>Pipe outside diameter: 16 mm<o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p><font size=3 face=Symbol><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Symbol'>·</span></font><font size=1><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span></font><span
lang=EN-US>Pipe wall thickness: 2 mm<o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>By
specifying the thicknesses of the layers adjacent to the active layers, the
following curiosity appeared.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>For
case 1, I set the thickness of the layer above the active layer to 73 mm, which
is greater than 0.3 times the pipe spacing, and I set the layer below to 0.5
times the pipe outside diameter (requirements taken from manual TRNSYS 17,
5-187, table). This step had worked pretty good and the simulation was running
without any problems.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>In a
second step, I revised the model and included the second active layer into the
TRNBLD model. As the floor screed should be identical for both cases, I tried
to define the thicknesses of the adjacent layers the same way as I did it in
case 1. But when I tried to reduce the thickness of the adjacent layer below,
the following warning appeared: “thickness must be in the range of 0.024
to 1.0”.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>In
order to understand this warning I had a closer look to the manual of TRNBLD.
On page 5-58 (TRNSYS 17) I found a remark that both layers adjacent to the
active layer must be greater than 0.3 times pipe spacing. This would explain,
why the warning appears, but I do not understand, why the first case should be
unproblematic, as the required minimum thickness in this case should be 72mm
and why this is not mentioned in the mathematical description.<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Does
anyone has an idea, what could be the reason behind that, or might this be a
known or unknown bug? If this requirement dependent on the pipe spacing should
be really used for both layers, this would mean that extremely thick floor
screeds of +15cm are necessary to model a floor heating system with a pipe
spacing of 24 cm. This sounds absolutely unrealistic. <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hoping
for some help,<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Kind
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Johannes
Schrade<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font>
</p>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
style='margin-left:3.0pt;border-collapse:collapse'>
<tr>
<td style='border:solid gray 1.0pt;border-right:none;padding:7.5pt 7.5pt 7.5pt 7.5pt'>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
style='margin-left:3.0pt;border-collapse:collapse'>
<tr>
<td style='border:solid gray 1.5pt;padding:3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><b><font size=1 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Johannes Schrade</span></font></b><font
size=1 face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial'><br>
Abteilung Wärmetechnik</span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Fraunhofer-Institut für Bauphysik<br>
Nobelstr. 12<br>
70569 Stuttgart</span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href="mailto:johannes.schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">johannes.schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
Telefon 0711 / 970-3416<br>
Telefax 0711 / 970-3399<br>
<a href="http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/wt/" target="_blank">www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/wt/</a></span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
<td style='border:solid gray 1.0pt;border-left:none;padding:7.5pt 7.5pt 7.5pt 7.5pt'>
<table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0
style='margin-left:3.0pt;border-collapse:collapse'>
<tr>
<td style='border:solid gray 1.5pt;padding:3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><b><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Johannes
Schrade</span></font></b><font size=1 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial'><br>
Department Heat Technology </span></font><span lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></span>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
lang=EN-GB style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Fraunhofer Institute
for Building Physics<br>
Nobelstr. </span></font><font size=1 face=Arial><span style='font-size:
9.0pt;font-family:Arial'>12<br>
70569 Stuttgart, Germany</span></font><o:p></o:p>
</p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:3.0pt;
margin-bottom:6.0pt;margin-left:3.0pt'><font size=1 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href="mailto:johannes.schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de" target="_blank">johannes.schrade@ibp.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
Phone <a href="tel:%2B49%20711%20%2F%20970-3416" target="_blank">+49 711 /
970-3416</a><br>
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970-3399</a><br>
<a href="http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/wt/" target="_blank">www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/wt/</a></span></font><o:p></o:p>
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