<div><br></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US">Hi Karol,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US">I had the same questions a
while ago and someone else would probably gives you more trustable answers than
me. But I will try to answer you with what I figured out (someone please corrects me if I'm wrong).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:#1F497D;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:FR">"It is mean that if I
introduce some supply air (ventilation manager) in zone then TRNBuild assume
that there is also exhaust air?" </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US">This is true. If you introduce
in zone A 50m<sup>3</sup>/h of air at T<sub>out</sub> for instance, Trnsys will
assume that the same amount of air (50m<sup>3</sup>/h) leaves zone A at
temperature of zone A (T_A).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:#1F497D;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:FR">"Then you define
ventilation for zone B and parameters of air will be taken from zone A"</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">That is what I would naturally
do but it actually causes convergence problems: if you use T_A to define parameters
of air supplied to zone B by the ventilation type, you will use an output of
type 56 as an input to type 56. Air supplied in zone B will change temperature
in zone B and it will affect temperature in zone A (since zone A and B have an
adjacent wall). Then the temperature of air supplied in zone B will change and
it will change temperature in zone B and… temperature in zone A (and so on…). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If you still want to do that,
you need to use type 93 (input value recall) to supply air with temperature of
zone A at timestep (t-1), in zone B at timestep (t).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;color:#1F497D;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US">“But if you define air from A to B as coupling flow
then TRNBuild assume that the same amount of air leave zone B as coupling flow,
not as exhaust air</span></span><span lang="EN-US">”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">That is not true. If you
define air from A to B as a coupling flow TRNBuild doesn’t assume automatically
that the same amount of air flows from B to A. (See the note in section 5.4.1.2
in Multizone Building Manual, page 145). When you use coupling flows you have
to perform air balance by yourself which means that if you define a coupling
from A to B, you will overload zone B. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><b>How do you define <u>exhaust
air</u> in zone B to balance the coupling flow from zone A?</b> I don’t know :).
Maybe someone else can tell us more about this… I’m looking for this answer
too!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Damien.</span></p></div><br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Karol Bandurski <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl">karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang="PL" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi!<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks for this quotation Damien but I don’t understand what is mean.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It is mean that if I introduce some supply air (ventilation manager) in zone then TRNBuild assume that there is also exhaust air? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Let us assume the situation:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I have ventilator in zone A but there is no ventilator in zone B. Between zone A and B is wall with door. I calculated that air supply to zone A flows to zone B.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">This quotation say to me (in above situation):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">you should define ventilation for zone A (supply air) then TRNBuild assumes the same amount of exhaust air for this zone but without any destination. Then you define ventilation for zone B and parameters of air will be taken from zone A, TRNBuild again assume the same amount of exhaust air, without any destination. But if you define air from A to B as coupling flow then TRNBuild assume that the same amount of air leave zone B as coupling flow, not as exhaust air.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p><u></u><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>1)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></b><u></u><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> It is true???<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If YES: <u></u><u></u></span></p><p><u></u><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>2)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></b><u></u><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What does TRNBuild assume for infiltration? If during infiltration air is supplied to zone then how it is ejected form there? <u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p><u></u><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span>3)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span></b><u></u><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If coupling flow is assumed then air “leave” part of its heat in wall? (because wall has some heat capacity)<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks again Damien for you tip, but<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I am asking for more explanation!<u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regards<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Karol<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Damien Gondre [mailto:<a href="mailto:damien.gondre@insa-ly" target="_blank">damien.gondre@insa-ly</a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><a href="http://on.fr" target="_blank">on.fr</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 17, 2011 2:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> Karol Bandurski<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu" target="_blank">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] energy bilans for Type 56<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Karol,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">I have never used energy balances for zones so I don't know what Qvent, Qtrans or Qsolgain represent, but have you looked in the multizone building manual, section 5.4.1.11, page 156 : "Equal amounts of air are assumed to leave the airnode at the airnode temperature".<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I don't know if it helps or not, but I think it might change your vision of how the energy balance is defined.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Damien.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Karol Bandurski <<a href="mailto:karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl" target="_blank">karol.bandurski@put.poznan.pl</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I has modeled two version of one family house: </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt">
<span lang="EN-US">a. with mechanical ventilation</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US">b. with natural ventilation + exhaust fans in dirty rooms (bathroom, WC, Kitchen) </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Then I has define balance output Ntype 904 (Energy Balance for Zones) for one zone of this house.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The balance is seems to me false because in TRNBuild in Ventilation Manager I can define only supply air ventilation. So, QVENT represents only heat from supply air, heat connect with exhaust air is probably contained in QTRANS. QTRANS has influence on temperature of walls, so maybe QSOLGAIN is also not so accurate? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My question:</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It is true? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US">How can I change it?</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Does TRNFlow change this imperfection? (I don’t have this soft, I has only Contam)</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">
<span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Karol</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">------------------------------------------------</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Karol Bandurski MSc.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white"><a href="http://www.ee.put.poznan.pl/" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">Institute of Environmental Engineering</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="background:white">Poznan University of Technology</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white"><a href="http://www.ee.put.poznan.pl/" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">www.ee.put.poznan.pl</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="background:white"><a href="http://www.put.poznan.pl/" target="_blank">www.put.poznan.pl</a></span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
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</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>