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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>(Thanks David for your answer..)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have furthermore investigated this issue and I have found the following example proposed in the TRNSYS mailing list some years ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have now another question concerning how to get the “k = gradient of sorptive isothermal line”. In the TRNSYS type56 manual there is a table of “material data for buffer storage humidity model”, but there are no references concerning the sources and/or the calculation conditions. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As “k” is not constant (at least over the 0%-100% RH range as it strongly varies with RH itself), which are the conditions at which the reported TRNSYS “k” refer?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks for helping and supporting,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>All the best <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Stefano<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='color:windowtext;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><i><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Date</span></i><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:17:49 -0500<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:windowtext;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><i><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>From</span></i><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>: "Matthias Rudolph" <<a href="mailto:rudolph@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">rudolph@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx</a>><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:windowtext;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><i><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Subject</span></i><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>: Re: AW: humidity calculation<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:windowtext'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>I think it is not that easy to define the absolutely correct value for the<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>humidity capacity ratio of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>the Capacitance humidity model[...]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>The default value for the humidity capacity ratio of the simple model should be<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>1<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>because this represents only the capacity of the air. The default values range<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>are 1-10 for a standard office because this depends on things like the quality<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>of the surface of walls. This could be the quality of a layer but also of a<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>color.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Maybe if you just take into account the surfaces of walls with a low diffusion<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Resistance than<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>one rough way to estimate the humidity capacity ratio is e.g. for a room 5 m x<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>4 m x 3 m:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>The mass of water in the air and the mass of water in walls, if all walls and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>the ceiling have 0.005 m thickness of gypsum. The Diffusion Resistance mü of<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>those walls is assumed to be low.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=DE style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Material roh [kg/m³] kapa [kgH2O/kgmat/relhum] mü<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Gipsum 900 0.015 8<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>m water air = 60m³ * 1.2 kg_air/m³ * 0.016 kg_H20/kg_air = 1.15<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>kg_H2o<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>m water walls = 0.37m³ * 900 kg_mat/m³ * 0.015 kg_H20/kg_mat = 5.0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>kg_H2o<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>this would result in a Ratio =(mw_air+mw_wall)/mw_air= 5.3<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext'>Matthias Rudolph<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> David BRADLEY [mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> venerdì 2 settembre 2011 16.37<br><b>To:</b> Avesani Stefano <br><b>Cc:</b> trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] multiplication factor and effective moisture capacitance estimation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Stefano,<br> I have looked a bit in the literature and have seen that values between 5 and 15 are typical. Completely unscientifically, I usually use 10 for a "typical" room. I would use a higher value if I were dealing with a room that had a lot of furnishings or a lot of papers. I typically use a value of 5 for corridors and lobbies since they tend to be less heavily furnished.<br>Best,<br> david<br><br><br>On 9/1/2011 10:58, Avesani Stefano wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'>Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'>I am wondering how to estimate the “humidity capacitance ratio” - = multiplication factor generally in the range of 1 to 10 – needed using the simplified (effective capacitance humidity model) type56 moisture model. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'>Any suggestion, experience, literature references? </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'>I have looked in the manual but I could not find any clue!</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'>Thanks a lot!</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'>All the best</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS , sans-serif","serif"'>Stefano</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>TRNSYS-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu">TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users">https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/listinfo/trnsys-users</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>***************************<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Principal<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>P:+1.608.274.2577<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>F:+1.608.278.1475<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.trnsys.com">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre></div></body></html>