<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Préformaté HTML Car";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.Style1, li.Style1, div.Style1
{mso-style-name:Style1;
mso-style-link:"Style1 Car";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";}
span.Style1Car
{mso-style-name:"Style1 Car";
mso-style-link:Style1;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:windowtext;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;}
span.PrformatHTMLCar
{mso-style-name:"Préformaté HTML Car";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"Préformaté HTML";
font-family:"Courier New";}
span.apple-style-span
{mso-style-name:apple-style-span;}
span.apple-converted-space
{mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt 70.85pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:1118526972;
mso-list-template-ids:-902428756;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0B7;
mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=FR link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Dear all<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Following the questioning here below I must admit that window characteristics specifications are not clear to me at the moment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>What I usually have when I start modeling a building project is the Uw (whole window heat transmission factor), Ug (glazing), Sg (glazing solar factor) and CLR (clear ratio = glazing area / total area) values.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>What I usually don’t have is the Uf (frame) value and the time to model the window with WINDOW software.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>So here is the process I came down to.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>1/ I chose the most similar window in TRNSYS window lib.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>2/ I get the Ug value shown in TRNBUILD.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>First question: Is this the U value for the glazing only as the data file includes frame definition?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Second question: The corresponding value in the data file is obtained at different ambient conditions (26.7°C e.g.) than the ones specified in the Norm (-18°C e.g.). Why is it so?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>3/ I calculate the Uf value to aim at the desired Uw value.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Third question: In TRNBUILD I must specify a “raw” value without convective and radiative contributions which are processed separately by TRNSYS. However the convective coefficients are said to be applied on both the frame and the glazing together which collides with the individual approach used in the Norm. To comply with what seems to be done by TRNSYS I thus use the following formula:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Uf = [ 1 / (1/Uw - Rse - Rsi) – CLR*1 / (1/Ug - Rse - Rsi) ] / (1 - CLR) where Rse, Rsi are the whole surface resistances Rs = 1/ (hconv+hrad).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Q°: Is it correct to consider the same Rs values for Uw and Ug (as it will be done eventually by TRNSYS anyway for the convective part)? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>4/ I assess the solar factor difference between my “artificial window” and the reference value I have and specify it as an external shade factor in TRNBUILD.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Here I use the Norm formula which is a little bit complicated so I will spare you the trouble.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>5/ I eventually check the results of this rather intricate process with an elementary simulation test case.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I use TRNSYS QUA variable with a few basic corrections and I typically get a value of Uw = 2.17 W/m2.K for a reference value of 2.1 which I consider satisfactory.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Q°: Is there a way to get directly the Uw value calculated by TRNBUILD?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Thank you very much for any answer you might have.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Best<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#404040'>--<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#404040'>Antoine Gautier<br>Solam</span><span style='color:#70B221'>en</span><span style='color:black'><br></span><span style='color:#404040'>+33 6 98 78 56 46<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#404040'>antoine.gautier@solamen.fr</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'>Yujun TAO</span></b></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'> </span></span><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'><a href="mailto:trnsys-users%40cae.wisc.edu?Subject=%5BTRNSYS-users%5D%20about%20Uw%2C%20Ug%2C%20g%20of%20window%20in%20Trnbuild&In-Reply-To=" title="[TRNSYS-users] about Uw, Ug, g of window in Trnbuild"><span lang=EN-US>aleck1314 at yahoo.fr</span><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='color:blue;text-decoration:none'> </span></span></a></span></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'><br><span class=apple-style-span><i>Thu Oct 22 06:34:50 CDT 2009</i></span></span><span class=apple-style-span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'>Previous message:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/pipermail/trnsys-users/2009/005194.html"><span lang=EN-US>[TRNSYS-users] Two way valve</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'>Next message:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/pipermail/trnsys-users/2009/005196.html"><span lang=EN-US>[TRNSYS-users] is there a type can get an input at a next time like anticipate something?</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'>Messages sorted by:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'> </span></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/pipermail/trnsys-users/2009/date.html#5195"><span lang=EN-US>[ date ]</span></a></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'> </span></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/pipermail/trnsys-users/2009/thread.html#5195"><span lang=EN-US>[ thread ]</span></a></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'> </span></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/pipermail/trnsys-users/2009/subject.html#5195"><span lang=EN-US>[ subject ]</span></a></span><span class=apple-converted-space><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'> </span></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><a href="https://mailman.cae.wisc.edu/pipermail/trnsys-users/2009/author.html#5195"><span lang=EN-US>[ author ]</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt'><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span class=apple-style-span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></span></div><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>hello users,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>I detected something strange about Window in Trnbuild. Or maybe I don't really understand.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>I find the calculation of Uw (U-value of the window), Ug (U-value of glazing) in Trnbuild is very scientific like they depend the outdoor temperature, the wind and the insolation. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>But these values are not clearly showed in Trnbuild, because I found the value (U-value of glazing) showed in the "window" was taken frow the files "W4-lib" or "Prgwin" in following location (outdoor temperature=26.7°C°, Solar (W/m².K)=0, WdSpd(m/s)=6.71, hcout, hrout, hin = (respectively) 25.47, 3.18, 6.89).<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>You can find in the attached document with the location I indicated. <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>It's not taken from the description location at the bottom of W4-lib or Prgwin files, neither from the head of Prgwin file.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>So I want to know curiously in the condition of european norm (CEN), how you defined a window and checked it (Ug, Uw) that you expected. Or more far in every different norm.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Because the U-value in these descriptions is Uw (total window) said in the tutorial of window5, <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>So for me, this value isn't useful because we can change the frame in the dialogue of"window". It's only useful for me when it's Ug and showed in the glazing in the dialogue of "window"(Trnbuild). I don't know if the TRNSYS 17 can do it.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>Second question is about g-value,<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>I don't know where is g-value from, because the two values (middle of description of one window, bottom of W4-lib, Prgwin files) are the same. If it's like U-value said in the tutorial of window5, so it's should be used for total window, not for glazing.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'>After all, for me, the indication of U-value, g-value of window in Trnbuild of TRNSYS 16 is strange and not according to the Norm (International, etc.), I want to know your experiences.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='color:black'>Aleck<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>