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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=FR link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>Thank you very much for all your answers, being</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> :</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>- Werner Keilholz and Vincent Coste : connect type 56 to a type 23 which </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>sets a target temperature</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> for automatic cooling and heating in type 56</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>,</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> giving the desired operative temperature ;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>- David Bradley : </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>set up </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>a</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> HVAC system to pay attention </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>to </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>including operative temperature ;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>- Maarten Sourbron: </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>compute </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>T_corrected = 2*Tset-Tmsurf, with Tset = </span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>desired operative temperature</span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> and Tmsurf the mean surface temp which type56 gives as an output</span><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> and set T_corrected as the target temperature for automatic cooling and heating in type 56.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Until now, I have only tried the first solution and I still have got some problems to give type 23 correct parameters but I am investigating.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Thanks for your help !<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Héloïse Pelen<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:2.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:white'>ETAMINE<o:p></o:p></span></b></p></div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><tr style='height:33.0pt'><td width=418 rowspan=2 valign=top style='width:313.65pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:33.0pt'><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width=416 style='width:312.15pt'><tr><td width="29%" style='width:29.36%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#00B050;text-transform:uppercase'><img width=118 height=48 id="Image_x0020_1" src="cid:image002.png@01CB85A1.01EAB920" alt="etamine_mail"></span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td><td width="69%" style='width:69.2%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:heloise.pelen@etamine.coop"><span style='color:black'>heloise.pelen@etamine.coop</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>75 rue de la Villette - 69003 Lyon<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Std : 04 37 45 34 20 / Fax : 04 37 45 41 38<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#00B050'>Ld : 04 37 45 34 13 / Port : 06 65 07 41 77</span><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:#00B050'><o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table></td><td width=0 style='width:.3pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;height:33.0pt'></td></tr><tr style='height:13.5pt'><td width=0 style='width:.3pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;height:13.5pt'></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Mistral'>Visitez notre site web : </span><a href="www.etamine.coop" title="Aller sur le site de ETAMINE"><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Mistral;color:#00B050'>www.etamine.coop</span></a><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Mistral'> !</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>De :</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Maarten Sourbron [mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be] <br><b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 12 novembre 2010 09:44<br><b>À :</b> David BRADLEY; Heloise PELEN<br><b>Cc :</b> trnsys-users@engr.wisc.edu<br><b>Objet :</b> RE: [TRNSYS-users] Top control in the Type 56<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Dear Héloïse, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>If you want to use the ideal heating and cooling option of type56, you can change the set point at wich you want to heat or cool.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>e.g. if you want to start heating at T_op=T_set=20°C, determine an input to type56 being T_corrected = 2*Tset-Tmsurf, with Tset = 20 and Tmsurf the mean surface temp which type56 gives as an output.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>It comes from T_operative = (T_air+T_mean_surf)/2, or with the symbols of above T_set = (T_corrected+Tmsurf)/2.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>So, instead of supplying the required operative temperature T_set as input, you supply the equivalent air temperature, so with T_corrected as air temp and Tmsurf as surface temp you end up with an operative temp = T_set.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Works fine, with no numerical issues, only a small oscillation around T_set, but with a small enough time step, this is neglectable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Good luck,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Maarten<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><pre><span lang=NL>-- <br><br><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering <br><br><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>Katholieke Universiteit Leuven<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>3001 Heverlee (Leuven)<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>E : Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be<o:p></o:p></span></pre></div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:windowtext'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> David BRADLEY [mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> maandag 8 november 2010 20:48<br><b>To:</b> Heloise PELEN<br><b>Cc:</b> trnsys-users@engr.wisc.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Top control in the Type 56</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=NL><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=NL>Heloise,<br> If you are using the automatic heating and cooling types that are built into Type56/TRNBuild then these only pay attention to the zone air temperature in order to compute the sensible load on the space. The control of those components is assumed to be instantaneous and ideal. If you are simulating a building and an actual HVAC system then you can set up the HVAC system to pay attention to whatever Type56 output variables that you want (including operative temperature). PID control is possible using Type22 but in my experience a lot of portions of the HVAC system are based on ON/OFF control (Type108). When implementing controls of any kind you need to make sure that your timesteps are small (1 to 5 minutes); recall that TRNSYS can make one control decision per timestep and then it must stick with that decision until the next timestep.<br>Regards,<br> David<br><br><br>On 11/8/2010 10:25, Heloise PELEN wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Dear TRNSYS users,</span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>The Type 56 uses a control on the air temperature « TAIR » to compute the sensible heat demand of each thermal zones.</span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>This temperature does not include the surface temperature and doesn’t fully describe the temperature actually felt by the human, body.</span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Is there a way to control the operative temperature, rather than on the air temperature, in type 56 ?</span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>I thought about using Type 22 but the simulation seems rather unstable with more than on Type 22, and I would like to be able to control the operative temperature in each thermal zones.</span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Thanks for your help !</span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Best regards,</span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Héloïse Pelen</span></b><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=NL style='font-size:2.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:white'>ETAMINE</span></b><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><tr style='height:33.0pt'><td width=418 rowspan=2 valign=top style='width:313.65pt;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;height:33.0pt'><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0 width=416 style='width:312.15pt'><tr><td width="29%" style='width:29.36%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#00B050;text-transform:uppercase'><img border=0 width=118 height=48 id="Image_x005f_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.jpg@01CB85A1.01EAB920" alt="etamine_mail"></span></b><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width="69%" style='width:69.2%;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:heloise.pelen@etamine.coop"><span style='color:black'>heloise.pelen@etamine.coop</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>75 rue de la Villette - 69003 Lyon</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Std : 04 37 45 34 20 / Fax : 04 37 45 41 38</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#00B050'>Ld : 04 37 45 34 13 / Port : 06 65 07 41 77</span><o:p></o:p></p></td></tr></table></td><td width=10 style='width:7.2pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;height:33.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></td></tr><tr style='height:13.5pt'><td width=10 style='width:7.2pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm;height:13.5pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=NL style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Mistral'>Visitez notre site web : </span><span lang=NL><a href="www.etamine.coop" title="Aller sur le site de
ETAMINE"><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Mistral;color:#00B050'>www.etamine.coop</span></a></span><span lang=NL style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Mistral'> !</span><span lang=NL><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=NL> <o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span lang=NL><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>TRNSYS-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL><a href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu">TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL><a href="https://www-old.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/trnsys-users">https://www-old.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/trnsys-users</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=NL style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><pre><span lang=NL>-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>***************************<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>David BRADLEY<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>Principal<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>Thermal Energy Systems Specialists, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>22 North Carroll Street - suite 370<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>Madison, WI 53703 USA<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>P:+1.608.274.2577<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL>F:+1.608.278.1475<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL><a href="mailto:d.bradley@tess-inc.com">d.bradley@tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL><a href="http://www.tess-inc.com">http://www.tess-inc.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=NL><a href="http://www.trnsys.com">http://www.trnsys.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></div></body></html>