<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD><TITLE>[TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on operativetemperature</TITLE>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Dear all,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>I also tried the approach suggested by mr Olsen, but a little different since I don't know how to change the deck. What I did was (see also attached file):</DIV>
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<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">-<SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I set the setpoint temperature in TRNbuild as an input. (see figure 1)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV></LI>
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<DIV class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore">-<SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Then I calculated the adapted air setpoint temperature (Tair_set) in TRNSYS studio as follows: (fig 2)<BR></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Tair_set = </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: 'MS Sans Serif'">(Tset_WK-0.5*Tms)*2 , where:<BR>-<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Tset_WK is the required operative temperature for a weekly schedule<BR></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: 'MS Sans Serif'">- Tms is the CURRENT mean surface temperature of the zone, which is a standard output of type 56. (outp Ntype24)</SPAN></DIV></LI></UL></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'MS Sans Serif'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-bidi-font-family: 'MS Sans Serif'"><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN>This way the <U>current</U> mean surface temperature is used. To me the results seem OK (see also attached file). Does anyone have an idea if this is a correct approach or that something might be wrong with it? (in my case the difference in temperature of Tmeansurf is up to 0.4 K, since I use night setback I think.)</P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none">Thank you a lot!</P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none">If I can be of any help to you, let me know.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none">Kind regards, Sabine Jansen </P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none">p.s. I have 2 more questions about the ideal heating demand + one general question. I will also ask these to the general users list, but since they are related I mention them here.</P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none">1. <SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> <FONT size=2><FONT face=Tahoma><U>it takes two timesteps for the ideal heating to reach the required setpoint</U>.. <BR>Is this normal or what am I doing wrong?</FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=2><FONT face=Tahoma>2. When using a schedule in trnbuild (so not in the operative correction trick of above), s</FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">omehow <U>the heating only switches on at exactly the time of the switch</U> (in my case 7 h and 17 h), while I assumed the schedule to mean that at the new time the new temperature must be obtained (see attached document). The heating switches OFF at exactly the changing time, so it then takes the new setpoint temperature. (see figure 2).</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">3. <SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Does anyone know why the temperature seems to be fluctuating a little (in other words: it is not a smooth line) as soon as the heating turns off?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Also when using a smaller timestep the line is not smooth, but the temperatures stay constant during a hour, so the line looks like a staircase.. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"> (note: the non-smooth line occurs when the heating is OFF)<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"></SPAN> </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 27pt; TEXT-INDENT: -27pt; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo1; tab-stops: list 27.0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: Tahoma; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"></SPAN></SPAN> </P>
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<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"></P></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: -18pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 0cm; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>Van:</B> Maarten Sourbron [mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be]<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> vr 19-2-2010 11:55<BR><B>Aan:</B> trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<BR><B>CC:</B> Kersken, Matthias; Sabine Jansen - BK; olsen@transsolar.com; keilholz, werner<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> Re: AW: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based onoperativetemperature<BR></FONT><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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<DIV>Thank you all for your answers : I checked the different solutions proposed.<BR><BR>With the type22 (iterative feedback controller) it seems to work but for some reason the controller seems satisfied with a resulting temperature lying outside the imposed tolerance (tol = 0.2K while Toperative - Tset = 0.8K sometimes). I didn't check the controllers algorithme to find out what's going on, though. The controller status indicated for most of the timesteps a value of 65 (1 + 64), which means the u-e - curve is 'too steep' for the controller. This might cause the problem?<BR><BR>With the reverse procedure suggested by mr. Olsen, it works fine, except from the fact that the mean radiant temp used to calculate the 'corrected' T_air, is always from the previous timestep (or am I mistaking here?). But, since Trad_mean doesn't change quickly, this only leeds to a minor deviation (0.1K max).<BR><BR>The Top-equation suggested by mr. Keilholz is more detailed, but the PID controller I tried quickly didn't manage to keep Top constant. I didn't look at it very carefully to find good controller parameters, I admit.<BR><BR>Thank you all!<BR><BR>Kind regards,<BR><BR>Maarten<BR><BR><BR><BR>Kersken, Matthias schreef:
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hello Ms. Jansen and Mr. Sourbron!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I also think the solution has to be outside Type56.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>If You use an iterative-feedback-controller (Type22) instead of Type2 and feed the operative temperature in as "controlled variable", define Your Setpoint and give the output of the controller as Gain in the thermal zone You should be able to avoid the hysteresis-effect occoring when using Type2. (You can also set a maximum output/heating power).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Using Type2 a bigger Deadband or a shorter timestep my also solve the problem.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>With kind regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010> <FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Matthias Kersken</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 4.5pt"><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 9pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fraunhofer-Institut für Bauphysik <BR>Institutsteil Holzkirchen</SPAN></P>
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<P style="MARGIN: 4.5pt 0cm"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">eMail: <A href="mailto:Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de">Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de</A><BR>Telefon 08024 / 643-204<BR>Telefax 08024 / 643-366<BR><A href="http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/">www.ibp.fraunhofer.de</A></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 4.5pt"><B><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Research Associate / Department Energy Systems </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 9pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-GB style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics <BR>Branch Holzkirchen</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB></SPAN></P>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>Von:</B> Sabine Jansen - BK [<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:S.C.Jansen@tudelft.nl">mailto:S.C.Jansen@tudelft.nl</A>] <BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Donnerstag, 18. Februar 2010 14:51<BR><B>An:</B> Maarten Sourbron; <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</A><BR><B>Betreff:</B> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based onoperativetemperature<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Dear all,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am also interensted in that question.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>The only way I know now how to solve this is by using a type (controller, type 2 or thermostat, type 8) outside type 56. The the operative zone temperature must be connected to this type (e.g. 2b and creating a schedule elsewhere, in an equation solver), and the heating must be defined as a limited power connected to an input, which is then the output of the control type (type 2 or type 8).</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>One problem with this approach is that I cannot use a very large heating power anymore, since that causes the controller to switch on and off. Thus the heating power must be determined using the ideal heating, based on air temperature, first.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>If there is an easier way, I am also very happy.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sabine Jansen</FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>Van:</B> Maarten Sourbron [<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be">mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be</A>]<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> do 18-2-2010 13:53<BR><B>Aan:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</A><BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on operativetemperature<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<P><FONT size=2>Dear all,<BR><BR>The simplified heating and cooling in Trnbuild is now comparing the zone<BR>AIR temperature with the given set points. Is there a way to change<BR>this (or another controller model) to have the zone OPERATIVE<BR>temperature compared with the set points?<BR><BR>Kind regards,<BR><BR>Maarten Sourbron<BR><BR>--<BR>Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering<BR>Katholieke Universiteit Leuven<BR>Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421<BR>3001 Heverlee (Leuven)<BR>T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73<BR>F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85<BR>E : <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be">Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be</A><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>TRNSYS-users mailing list<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu">TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu</A><BR><A href="https://www-old.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/trnsys-users">https://www-old.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/trnsys-users</A><BR></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">--
Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421
3001 Heverlee (Leuven)
T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73
F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85
E : <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be">Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be</A></PRE></DIV></BODY></HTML>