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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Hello Maarten!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>I always made good experiences with
Type22.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>In You first mail You wrote that You're limited in Your
heating power, so it would be logical if the heating power wouldn't be
sufficient.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Is the heating power at maximum if You have the high
differences and what direction are this differences (to hot or to
cold)?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>What
is Your "Threshold for non-zero output" value?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=754100211-19022010><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>With
kind regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=754100211-19022010> <FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Matthias Kersken</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dipl.-Ing. Matthias
Kersken<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Wissenschaftlicher
Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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Bauphysik <BR>Institutsteil Holzkirchen</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
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10<BR>83626 Valley</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
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href="mailto:Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de">Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de</A><BR>Telefon
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lang=EN-GB>Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN
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lang=EN-GB>Research Associate / Department Energy Systems
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lang=EN-GB>Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics <BR>Branch
Holzkirchen</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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lang=EN-GB>Fraunhoferstraße</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> 10<BR>D-83626 Valley</SPAN><SPAN
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lang=EN-GB>eMail: </SPAN><SPAN
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href="mailto:Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de"><SPAN
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lang=EN-GB><BR>Phone +49 8024 / 643-204<BR>Fax +49 8024 /
643-366<BR></SPAN><SPAN
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<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=de class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>Von:</B> Maarten Sourbron
[mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be] <BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Freitag, 19.
Februar 2010 11:55<BR><B>An:</B> trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<BR><B>Cc:</B>
Kersken, Matthias; Sabine Jansen - BK; olsen@transsolar.com; keilholz,
werner<BR><B>Betreff:</B> Re: AW: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and
cooling based onoperativetemperature<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Thank you all for your answers : I checked the different solutions
proposed.<BR><BR>With the type22 (iterative feedback controller) it seems to
work but for some reason the controller seems satisfied with a resulting
temperature lying outside the imposed tolerance (tol = 0.2K while Toperative -
Tset = 0.8K sometimes). I didn't check the controllers algorithme to
find out what's going on, though. The controller status indicated for
most of the timesteps a value of 65 (1 + 64), which means the u-e - curve is
'too steep' for the controller. This might cause the
problem?<BR><BR>With the reverse procedure suggested by mr. Olsen, it works
fine, except from the fact that the mean radiant temp used to calculate the
'corrected' T_air, is always from the previous timestep (or am I mistaking
here?). But, since Trad_mean doesn't change quickly, this only leeds to
a minor deviation (0.1K max).<BR><BR>The Top-equation suggested by mr.
Keilholz is more detailed, but the PID controller I tried quickly didn't
manage to keep Top constant. I didn't look at it very carefully to find
good controller parameters, I admit.<BR><BR>Thank you all!<BR><BR>Kind
regards,<BR><BR>Maarten<BR><BR><BR><BR>Kersken, Matthias schreef:
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:76D707B03195C64E81A623DD170CDF3D02AD7F77@izs-xchg01.izs.fraunhofer.de
type="cite">
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Hello Ms. Jansen and Mr. Sourbron!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I also think the solution has to be outside
Type56.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>If You use an iterative-feedback-controller
(Type22) instead of Type2 and feed the operative temperature in as
"controlled variable", define Your Setpoint and give the output of the
controller as Gain in the thermal zone You should be able to avoid the
hysteresis-effect occoring when using Type2. (You can also set a maximum
output/heating power).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Using Type2 a bigger Deadband or a shorter timestep my
also solve the problem.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>With kind regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010>
<FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Matthias Kersken</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 4.5pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dipl.-Ing. Matthias
Kersken<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Wissenschaftlicher
Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 9pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fraunhofer-Institut
für Bauphysik <BR>Institutsteil
Holzkirchen</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fraunhoferstraße
10<BR>83626 Valley</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 4.5pt 0cm"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">eMail: <A
href="mailto:Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de</A><BR>Telefon
08024 / 643-204<BR>Telefax 08024 / 643-366<BR><A
href="http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.ibp.fraunhofer.de</A></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 4.5pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-GB>Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>Research
Associate / Department Energy Systems </SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 9pt 0cm 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-GB>Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics <BR>Branch
Holzkirchen</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN class=SpellE><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-GB>Fraunhoferstraße</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>
10<BR>D-83626 Valley</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 4.5pt 0cm"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB>eMail:
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de"
moz-do-not-send="true"><SPAN
lang=EN-GB>Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-GB><BR>Phone
+49 8024 / 643-204<BR>Fax +49 8024 / 643-366<BR></SPAN><SPAN
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<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>Von:</B> Sabine Jansen - BK [<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:S.C.Jansen@tudelft.nl">mailto:S.C.Jansen@tudelft.nl</A>]
<BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Donnerstag, 18. Februar 2010 14:51<BR><B>An:</B>
Maarten Sourbron; <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</A><BR><B>Betreff:</B>
Re: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based
onoperativetemperature<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr id=idOWAReplyText40328>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Dear all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I am also interensted in that
question.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The only way I know now how to solve
this is by using a type (controller, type 2 or thermostat, type 8) outside
type 56. The the operative zone temperature must be connected to this
type (e.g. 2b and creating a schedule elsewhere, in an equation solver),
and the heating must be defined as a limited power connected to an input,
which is then the output of the control type (type 2 or type
8).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>One problem with this approach is
that I cannot use a very large heating power anymore, since that causes
the controller to switch on and off. Thus the heating power must be
determined using the ideal heating, based on air temperature,
first.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If there is an easier way, I am also
very happy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Sabine Jansen</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
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<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>Van:</B> Maarten Sourbron [<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be">mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be</A>]<BR><B>Verzonden:</B>
do 18-2-2010 13:53<BR><B>Aan:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu">trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu</A><BR><B>Onderwerp:</B>
[TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on
operativetemperature<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Dear all,<BR><BR>The simplified heating and cooling in
Trnbuild is now comparing the zone<BR>AIR temperature with the given set
points. Is there a way to change<BR>this (or another controller
model) to have the zone OPERATIVE<BR>temperature compared with the set
points?<BR><BR>Kind regards,<BR><BR>Maarten
Sourbron<BR><BR>--<BR>Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical
Engineering<BR>Katholieke Universiteit Leuven<BR>Celestijnenlaan 300A bus
2421<BR>3001 Heverlee (Leuven)<BR>T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73<BR>F : 0032
(0)16 32 29 85<BR>E : <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be">Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be</A><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>TRNSYS-users
mailing list<BR><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu">TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu</A><BR><A
href="https://www-old.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/trnsys-users"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www-old.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/trnsys-users</A><BR></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">--
Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421
3001 Heverlee (Leuven)
T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73
F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85
E : <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be">Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be</A></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>