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<title>[TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on
operativetemperature</title>
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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think using NTYPE 25 is actually more precise, as it seems to
use variable exchange coefficients (the formula is in the manual 5).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I guess NType25 was not available when we had this discussion,
so I guess using it is probably better than writing the formula (which was
mainly used to show the basic idea).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Werner<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Kent Beason
[mailto:kbeason@schlitterbahn.com] <br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 18 février 2010 15:36<br>
<b>À :</b> keilholz, werner<br>
<b>Objet :</b> RE: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling
basedonoperativetemperature<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Werner, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Does this approach give a different result than that which the
NType28 provides from the Type56 outputs?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Garamond","serif";
color:navy'>Kent Beason</span></strong><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";
color:navy'>Schlitterbahn Development Group</span><span lang=EN-US
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";
color:navy'>830-609-8904 m</span><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:navy'> </span><span
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=EN-US>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> keilholz, werner
[mailto:werner.keilholz@cstb.fr] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sabine Jansen - BK; Maarten Sourbron; trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling
basedonoperativetemperature</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I once proposed to define an equation
:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-sans-serif","serif";
color:black'><img width=350 height=25 id="_x0000_i1027"
src="cid:image001.gif@01CAB0B1.3C6E4500"></span><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-sans-serif","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>(using the definition from </span><a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operative_temperature"><span lang=EN-US>Wikipedia</span></a><span
lang=EN-US>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>tr
mean wall temperature; <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>ta
mean air temperature <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>ts
mean skin temperature<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-sans-serif","serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>and link it to the building as in the
attached picture. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0cm' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span lang=EN-US>In
TRNBuild, add all ‘wall temperatures’ as outputs (yields tr<sub>i</sub>,
for i 1 to n walls)<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span lang=EN-US>Add an
equation to compute </span><span style='position:relative;top:14.0pt;
mso-text-raise:-14.0pt'><img border=0 width=67 height=45 id="_x0000_i1028"
src="cid:image002.gif@01CAB0B1.3C6E4500"></span><span lang=EN-US>, then T<sub>0
<br>
</sub>Estimate v (wind speed) and ts (skin temperature) <o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0cm' start=3 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><span lang=EN-US>Connect
the result to a controller which pilots the heating in type 56 in mode <i>« temperature
level control</i> »<o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>But I agree it would be much nicer to have
a switch in type 56 allowing computing based on operative temperature. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I’m not at all an expert in this
domain, but my expert colleagues never contested the approach </span><span
lang=EN-US style='font-family:Wingdings'>J</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>(except for the hint that the mean surface
temperatures should also be scaled depending on the surface area to be
precise…).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Werner<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De :</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Sabine Jansen - BK
[mailto:S.C.Jansen@tudelft.nl] <br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> jeudi 18 février 2010 14:51<br>
<b>À :</b> Maarten Sourbron; trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based
onoperativetemperature<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div id=idOWAReplyText40328>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Dear all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I
am also interensted in that question.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The
only way I know now how to solve this is by using a type (controller, type 2 or
thermostat, type 8) outside type 56. The the operative zone temperature
must be connected to this type (e.g. 2b and creating a schedule elsewhere, in
an equation solver), and the heating must be defined as a limited power connected
to an input, which is then the output of the control type (type 2 or type 8).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>One
problem with this approach is that I cannot use a very large heating power
anymore, since that causes the controller to switch on and off. Thus the
heating power must be determined using the ideal heating, based on air
temperature, first.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If
there is an easier way, I am also very happy.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Kind
regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sabine
Jansen</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Van:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Maarten Sourbron
[mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be]<br>
<b>Verzonden:</b> do 18-2-2010 13:53<br>
<b>Aan:</b> trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br>
<b>Onderwerp:</b> [TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on
operativetemperature</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Dear all,<br>
<br>
The simplified heating and cooling in Trnbuild is now comparing the zone<br>
AIR temperature with the given set points. Is there a way to change<br>
this (or another controller model) to have the zone OPERATIVE<br>
temperature compared with the set points?<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Maarten Sourbron<br>
<br>
--<br>
Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering<br>
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven<br>
Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421<br>
3001 Heverlee (Leuven)<br>
T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73<br>
F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85<br>
E : Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be<br>
<br>
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