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<title>[TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on
operativetemperature</title>
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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My apologies, yes a typo on my end: Ntype25,
not Ntype28. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of Ntype25. </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3 color=navy face=Garamond><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Garamond;color:navy'>Kent Beason</span></font></b></strong><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Garamond><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Garamond;color:navy'>Schlitterbahn
Development Group</span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Garamond><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Garamond;color:navy'>830-609-8904 m</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> keilholz, werner
[mailto:werner.keilholz@cstb.fr] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, February 18, 2010
8:54 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Kent Beason<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [TRNSYS-users]
Simplified heating and cooling basedonoperativetemperature</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I think using NTYPE
25 is actually more precise, as it seems to use variable exchange coefficients
(the formula is in the manual 5).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I guess NType25 was
not available when we had this discussion, so I guess using it is probably
better than writing the formula (which was mainly used to show the basic idea).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Werner<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=FR style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>De :</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Kent Beason [mailto:kbeason@schlitterbahn.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Envoyé :</span></b> jeudi 18 février
2010 15:36<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>À :</span></b> keilholz, werner<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Objet :</span></b> RE: [TRNSYS-users]
Simplified heating and cooling basedonoperativetemperature<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Werner, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Does this approach give a different result
than that which the NType28 provides from the Type56 outputs?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3 color=navy face=Garamond><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Garamond;color:navy'>Kent Beason</span></font></b></strong><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Garamond><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Garamond;color:navy'>Schlitterbahn
Development Group</span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Garamond><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Garamond;color:navy'>830-609-8904 m</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> keilholz, werner
[mailto:werner.keilholz@cstb.fr] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, February 18, 2010
8:18 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Sabine Jansen - BK; Maarten
Sourbron; trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [TRNSYS-users]
Simplified heating and cooling basedonoperativetemperature</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I once proposed to define an equation :<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=-webkit-sans-serif><span
lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:-webkit-sans-serif;color:black'><img
width=350 height=25 id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image001.gif@01CAB078.D9964AF0"></span></font><font
size=2 color=black face=-webkit-sans-serif><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:-webkit-sans-serif;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>(using the definition from </span></font><span lang=FR><a
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operative_temperature"><span lang=EN-US>Wikipedia</span></a></span>)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>tr mean wall
temperature; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>ta mean air
temperature <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>ts mean skin
temperature<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=-webkit-sans-serif><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:-webkit-sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>and link it to the building as in the attached picture. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>In TRNBuild, add all
‘wall temperatures’ as outputs (yields tr<sub>i</sub>, for i 1
to n walls)<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Add an equation to
compute </span></font><span lang=FR style='position:relative;top:14.0pt;
mso-text-raise:-14.0pt'><img border=0 width=67 height=45 id="_x0000_i1028"
src="cid:image002.gif@01CAB078.D9964AF0"></span>, then T<sub>0 <br>
</sub>Estimate v (wind speed) and ts (skin temperature) <o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=3 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Connect the result
to a controller which pilots the heating in type 56 in mode <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>« temperature level control</span></i> »<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>But I agree it would be much nicer to have a switch in type 56 allowing
computing based on operative temperature. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I’m not at all an expert in this domain, but my expert colleagues
never contested the approach </span></font><font face=Wingdings><span
style='font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>(except for the hint that the mean surface temperatures should also be
scaled depending on the surface area to be precise…).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Werner<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=FR style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>De :</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Sabine Jansen - BK [mailto:S.C.Jansen@tudelft.nl] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Envoyé :</span></b> jeudi 18 février
2010 14:51<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>À :</span></b> Maarten Sourbron;
trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Objet :</span></b> Re: [TRNSYS-users]
Simplified heating and cooling based onoperativetemperature<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=idOWAReplyText40328>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span lang=FR
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Dear all,</span></font><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I am also interensted in that question.</span></font><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The only way I know now how to solve this is by using a type
(controller, type 2 or thermostat, type 8) outside type 56. The the
operative zone temperature must be connected to this type (e.g. 2b and creating
a schedule elsewhere, in an equation solver), and the heating must be defined
as a limited power connected to an input, which is then the output of the
control type (type 2 or type 8).</span></font><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>One problem with this approach is that I cannot use a very
large heating power anymore, since that causes the controller to switch on and
off. Thus the heating power must be determined using the ideal heating, based
on air temperature, first.</span></font><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If there is an easier way, I am also very happy.</span></font><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Kind regards,</span></font><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Sabine Jansen</span></font><span lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Van:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Maarten Sourbron [mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Verzonden:</span></b> do 18-2-2010 13:53<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Aan:</span></b> trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Onderwerp:</span></b> [TRNSYS-users]
Simplified heating and cooling based on operativetemperature</span></font><span
lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span lang=FR style='font-size:10.0pt'>Dear
all,<br>
<br>
The simplified heating and cooling in Trnbuild is now comparing the zone<br>
AIR temperature with the given set points. Is there a way to change<br>
this (or another controller model) to have the zone OPERATIVE<br>
temperature compared with the set points?<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
<br>
Maarten Sourbron<br>
<br>
--<br>
Departement Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering<br>
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven<br>
Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421<br>
3001 Heverlee (Leuven)<br>
T : 0032 (0)16 32 28 73<br>
F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85<br>
E : Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be<br>
<br>
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lang=FR><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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