<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD><TITLE>[TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on operativetemperature</TITLE>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18876"></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Hello Ms. Jansen and Mr. Sourbron!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I also think the solution has to be outside
Type56.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>If You use an iterative-feedback-controller
(Type22) instead of Type2 and feed the operative temperature in as
"controlled variable", define Your Setpoint and give the output of the
controller as Gain in the thermal zone You should be able to avoid the
hysteresis-effect occoring when using Type2. (You can also set a maximum
output/heating power).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Using Type2 a bigger Deadband or a shorter timestep my also
solve the problem.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>With kind regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=263024514-18022010> <FONT
color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Matthias Kersken</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal align=left><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">---</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<TABLE
style="mso-cellspacing: 1.5pt; mso-table-lspace: 2.25pt; mso-table-rspace: 2.25pt; mso-table-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-table-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-table-left: -9.05pt; mso-padding-alt: 0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt"
class=MsoNormalTable border=0 borderColorLight=#808080 borderColorDark=#808080
cellPadding=0 align=left>
<TBODY>
<TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes">
<TD
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 87.75pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt"
vAlign=top width=117>
<DIV>
<TABLE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; WIDTH: 262.5pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BACKGROUND: silver; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 4.8pt; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; mso-table-lspace: 7.05pt; mso-table-rspace: 7.05pt; mso-table-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-table-anchor-horizontal: margin; mso-table-left: left; mso-padding-alt: 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt; mso-table-overlap: never; mso-table-top: .25pt"
class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=350
align=left>
<TBODY>
<TR
style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes">
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: white; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; mso-border-alt: solid windowtext .5pt">
<P
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 4.5pt; mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dipl.-Ing. Matthias
Kersken<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Wissenschaftlicher
Mitarbeiter / Abteilung Energiesysteme<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN: 9pt 0cm 0pt; mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fraunhofer-Institut für
Bauphysik <BR>Institutsteil Holzkirchen</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fraunhoferstraße
10<BR>83626 Valley</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P
style="MARGIN: 4.5pt 0cm; mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">eMail: <A
href="mailto:Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de">Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de</A><BR>Telefon
08024 / 643-204<BR>Telefax 08024 / 643-366<BR><A
href="http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/">www.ibp.fraunhofer.de</A></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P
style="mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"
class=MsoNormal><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></TD>
<TD
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0.75pt; WIDTH: 5cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0.75pt"
vAlign=top width=189>
<TABLE
style="WIDTH: 231pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BACKGROUND: silver; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 4.8pt; mso-table-lspace: 7.05pt; mso-table-rspace: 7.05pt; mso-table-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-table-anchor-horizontal: margin; mso-table-left: left; mso-padding-alt: 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt 3.0pt; mso-table-overlap: never; mso-table-top: .3pt"
class=MsoNormalTable border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColorLight=#808080
borderColorDark=#808080 cellPadding=0 width=308 align=left>
<TBODY>
<TR
style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes">
<TD
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 3pt; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 3pt; BACKGROUND: white; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"
vAlign=top>
<P
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 4.5pt; mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>Dipl.-Ing. Matthias Kersken<BR></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>Research Associate / Department Energy Systems
</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN: 9pt 0cm 0pt; mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>Fraunhofer Institute for Building Physics <BR>Branch
Holzkirchen</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"><SPAN
class=SpellE><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>Fraunhoferstraße</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> 10<BR>D-83626 Valley</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB" lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P
style="MARGIN: 4.5pt 0cm; mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>eMail: </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de"><SPAN
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>Matthias.Kersken@ibp.fraunhofer.de</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><BR>Phone +49 8024 / 643-204<BR>Fax +49 8024 /
643-366<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="http://www.ibp.fraunhofer.de/"><SPAN
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>www.ibp.fraunhofer.de</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P
style="mso-element: frame; mso-element-frame-hspace: 2.25pt; mso-element-wrap: around; mso-element-anchor-vertical: paragraph; mso-element-anchor-horizontal: column; mso-element-left: -9.0pt; mso-height-rule: exactly"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"
lang=EN-GB>---<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=de class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>Von:</B> Sabine Jansen - BK
[mailto:S.C.Jansen@tudelft.nl] <BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Donnerstag, 18. Februar
2010 14:51<BR><B>An:</B> Maarten Sourbron;
trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<BR><B>Betreff:</B> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Simplified
heating and cooling based onoperativetemperature<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr id=idOWAReplyText40328>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>Dear all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I am also interensted in that
question.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The only way I know now how to solve this
is by using a type (controller, type 2 or thermostat, type 8) outside type 56.
The the operative zone temperature must be connected to this type (e.g.
2b and creating a schedule elsewhere, in an equation solver), and the heating
must be defined as a limited power connected to an input, which is then the
output of the control type (type 2 or type 8).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>One problem with this approach is that I
cannot use a very large heating power anymore, since that causes the
controller to switch on and off. Thus the heating power must be determined
using the ideal heating, based on air temperature, first.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If there is an easier way, I am also very
happy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Sabine Jansen</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>Van:</B> Maarten Sourbron
[mailto:Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be]<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> do 18-2-2010
13:53<BR><B>Aan:</B> trnsys-users@cae.wisc.edu<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B>
[TRNSYS-users] Simplified heating and cooling based on
operativetemperature<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Dear all,<BR><BR>The simplified heating and cooling in
Trnbuild is now comparing the zone<BR>AIR temperature with the given set
points. Is there a way to change<BR>this (or another controller model)
to have the zone OPERATIVE<BR>temperature compared with the set
points?<BR><BR>Kind regards,<BR><BR>Maarten Sourbron<BR><BR>--<BR>Departement
Werktuigkunde-Department of Mechanical Engineering<BR>Katholieke Universiteit
Leuven<BR>Celestijnenlaan 300A bus 2421<BR>3001 Heverlee (Leuven)<BR>T : 0032
(0)16 32 28 73<BR>F : 0032 (0)16 32 29 85<BR>E :
Maarten.Sourbron@mech.kuleuven.be<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>TRNSYS-users
mailing list<BR>TRNSYS-users@cae.wisc.edu<BR><A
href="https://www-old.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/trnsys-users">https://www-old.cae.wisc.edu/mailman/listinfo/trnsys-users</A><BR></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>