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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=993215611-16042007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks a lot for your help!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Kind regards</FONT>
</P><BR>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Daniel Büchele<BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=1>Dipl. Ing. Gebäudeklimatik- / Technik</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
size=1>Projektleiter </FONT> </P><BR>
<P><B><FONT face=Arial size=2>Helbling Holding AG<BR></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Hohlstrasse 614<BR>CH-8048 Zürich<BR>Telefon +41 44 438 18
64<BR>Mobile +41 79 641 44 03<BR>Telefax +41 44 438 18 10<BR><A
href="mailto:daniel.buechele@helbling.ch">mailto:daniel.buechele@helbling.ch</A><U>
<</U></FONT><A href="http://www.helbling.ch/"><U><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>http://www.helbling.ch</FONT></U></A><U></U><U></U><U><FONT
face=Arial size=2>></FONT></U> </P>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>Von:</B> David Bradley [mailto:bradley@tess-inc.com]
<BR><B>Gesendet:</B> Freitag, 13. April 2007 20:09<BR><B>An:</B>
aa1@brighton.ac.uk; Büchele Daniel (Helbling Beratung + Bauplanung);
trnsys-users@engr.wisc.edu<BR><B>Betreff:</B> RE: [TRNSYS-users] Exterior wall
against ground<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Abdullahi,<BR> You are correct that you should integrate with
respect to depth and calcuate the average. There is no simple way to do that
directly in Type77/501 at the moment. It is an interesting idea for future
versions. As a simple alternative, you can use the Kasuda depth for the middle
of the below grade section of the wall although it is not quite as
correct.<BR>Cheers,<BR> David<BR><BR><BR>At 12:27 4/13/2007,
aa1@brighton.ac.uk wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT
size=2>David/Daniel,<BR> <BR>My only concern with the use of Kasuda
correlation (in the form used in type 77 &Type 501) for vertical surfaces
like a basement wall, is the fact that these components will only give the
soil temperature at a single vertical point (say depth
Z,Z<SUB>1</SUB>,Z<SUB>2</SUB> …..at any given time). If your wall is very
deep, say 1-2m deep, what you need is probably the average temperature of a
vertical profile ranging between depth Z<SUB>1</SUB> and Z<SUB>2.
<BR></SUB> <BR>The way to go about this is to integrate the Kasuda
expression with respect to depth (Z<SUB>1</SUB> to Z<SUB>2</SUB>). My question
to David is whether this is achievable with Type77/501? If not perhaps Daniel
might want to look at the following document on how to integrate the
Labs/kasuda correlations. <BR></FONT><FONT color=#000080
size=2> <BR></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times">Labs, K. 1989.
Earth Coupling. <U>Passive Cooling</U>. J. Cook. </FONT>Cambridge
Massachusetts, The MIT Press<B>: </B>197-346.<BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times"> <BR>Abdullahi<BR></FONT><FONT
color=#000080 size=2> <BR></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times"
color=#000080 size=2>School of the Environment<BR>University of
Brighton<BR>Cockcroft Building<BR>Lewes Rd.<BR>Brighton<BR>BN2
4GJ<BR> <BR>Tel: +44 01273 643455<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Bradley [<A
href="mailto:bradley@tess-inc.com" eudora="autourl">
mailto:bradley@tess-inc.com</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 13 April 2007
17:38<BR><B>To:</B> Büchele Daniel (Helbling Beratung + Bauplanung);
trnsys-users@engr.wisc.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TRNSYS-users] Exterior wall
against ground<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times"> <BR>Daniel,<BR> Arie's response is
quite correct. Additionally, if you do not want to use the annual ambient
temperature as your boundary wall temperature, you can use the temperature of
undisturbed ground as calculated by the Kasuda correlation from Type77. This
makes the ground temperature a function of depth and time of year. Like with
Arie's response, it assumes that the ground is an infinite source / sink and
that energy transferred from the building through the wall to the ground does
not affect the ground temperature in the long term. We have written a few
basement models recently that do account for the change in the ground
temperature due to energy transfer through the wall but they assume four
basement walls and a floor. If you only have one wall below grade then you
might be best off using Arie's method either with the annual average ground
temperature or with Type77.<BR>Cheers,<BR> David<BR><BR><BR>At 12:48
4/12/2007, Helbling Beratung + Bauplanung wrote:<BR><BR>Content-class:
urn:content-classes:message<BR>Content-Type:
multipart/alternative;<BR><X-TAB> </X-TAB>
boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C77D2A.CB11DF05"<BR><BR></FONT><FONT
size=2>Hello everybody</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT size=2>Can anyone, tell me whats
the best way to simulate a external wall against the ground.</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>How can I define the ground ??</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT size=2>Thanks in
advance</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT size=2>Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Kind
regards</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT size=2>Daniel Büchele<BR></FONT><FONT
size=1>Dipl. Ing. Gebäudeklimatik- / Technik</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=1>Projektleiter </FONT><BR><BR><FONT size=2><B>Helbling Holding
AG<BR></B>Hohlstrasse 614<BR>CH-8048 Zürich<BR>Telefon +41 44 438 18
64<BR>Mobile +41 79 641 44 03<BR>Telefax +41 44 438 18
10<BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><U><A
href="mailto:daniel.buechele@helbling.ch">mailto:daniel.buechele@helbling.ch</A></FONT><FONT
size=2> <</FONT> <A href="http://www.helbling.ch/" eudora="autourl"><FONT
size=2>http://www.helbling.ch</A></FONT> <FONT size=2>></U></FONT>
<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>TRNSYS-users
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face="Times New Roman, Times">****************************************************************************************<BR>Thermal
Energy System Specialists (TESS), LLC <BR>David
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<BR>****************************************************************************************</BLOCKQUOTE><X-SIGSEP>
<P></X-SIGSEP>****************************************************************************************<BR>Thermal
Energy System Specialists (TESS), LLC <BR>David
BRADLEY
2916 Marketplace Drive - Suite 104
<BR>Partner
Madison, WI 53719 <BR>Phone: (608) 274-2577 USA <BR>Fax: (608) 278-1475
<BR>E-mail: bradley@tess-inc.com <BR>Web Pages: <A
href="http://www.tess-inc.com/"
eudora="autourl">http://www.tess-inc.com</A>
and <A href="http://www.trnsys.com/"
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for today's energy engineering projects"
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