<div dir="ltr"><div><font color="#073763">Hi Nick,</font></div><div><font color="#073763"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(7,55,99)">I fully </span><font color="#073763">abide by your thoughts that how an</font><span style="color:rgb(7,55,99)">nually the formula has been deciphered by you.</span><br></div><div><font color="#073763">You have also considered the inlet or makeup water as ground water temperature.</font></div><div><font color="#073763">Also you have tried to configure the annual dT as the temperature difference between supply and ground water temperature.</font></div><div><font color="#073763">But as per me if you are trying to configure the GPM in the DHW loop then the temperature difference is required to be calculated upon the inlet of the tank and outlet temperature difference which might can be the discharge water temperature .If there is open loop then the temperature difference shall be between the inlet tank temperature and discharge water temperature .No worries if these temperature are accounted to calculate dT then one should believe that only tank volume will be considered. After this one should not consider that only tank volume or dT might be considered while the loop is also being considered.</font></div><div><font color="#073763">Also one should consider that the flow shall be regular everywhere after it comes from outlet of the tank. Hence GPM shall be same all over</font></div><div><font color="#073763">The other factors which were missing in the basic formula were the tank wall,and pipe wall losses and also the system efficiencies.</font></div><div><font color="#073763">With these considerations we can estimate that delta T should be calculated upon minute or second basis as pe me.</font></div><div><font color="#073763">The required Q (BTUh) shall be the tank capacity based and the added loop volume based total heat added.but to rather configure out we shall consider only the tank added Q as the heat being added to tank itself. </font></div><div><font color="#073763">The thing that we are required to have as the solution is the GPM not the annual GPM.</font></div><div><font color="#073763">GPM should be in minutes and also dT is something which should be as per minute or seconds.</font></div><div><font color="#073763">I think this is the same dT which you are inferring as dT annual.</font></div><div><font color="#073763">With these considerations i can infer that I have tried something which can be like an add-on to my prior mail.</font></div><div><font color="#073763"><br></font></div><div><font color="#073763">Sorry to others if it seemed to be offended to someone.</font></div><div><font color="#073763"><br></font></div><div><font color="#073763"><b>Thanks,</b></font></div><div><font color="#073763" style="">Sharad.</font></div><div><br></div><div>......................................................................................................................................................</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:44 AM Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@se.com">Nicholas.Caton@se.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Sharad – your contribution provoked me to consider this further (read: I have work I’m supposed to be doing and I like indulging in a distraction on occasion),<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ve spent a little time trying to intuit your recommended shortcut. I think I understand it now, but want to explain the estimation method for others and to confirm understanding. Perhaps I have missed a more elegant shortcut?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To preface: We should observe the formula Q = 500*GPM*dT can be tricky when applied against open loop fluid systems, if all inlet/outlet streams aren’t considered. If you focus too narrowly on only supply and return (recirc), without accounting
for the makeup fluid stream… One might say you could end up in hot water ;-). <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We can use this equation to <b>estimate</b> consumption (kgal) of domestic hot water (DHW) per year, but it will require some assumptions and manipulations along the way:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">To first recap: Q = 500*GPM*dT is, without further modification, intended to calculate the rate at which heat is imparted/extracted (Btu/h) at a given flow rate (gallons per minute)
and difference in temperatures (dT), for a fluid with thermal properties substantially aligning with plain water (the constant 500). <u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Let’s also clarify what we’re trying to solve for: Gallons of DHW consumed per year. Provided no leaks in the system and ignoring drains for maintenance/repairs, this volume should
match the makeup water introduced into the DHW system over the same time period.<u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Assuming Makeup water = Groundwater Temps, then
<u></u><u></u></li><ul style="margin-top:0in" type="circle">
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Ignoring tank/storage losses, and ignoring losses in distribution between makeup water entry and the points of delivery,
<u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">and further asserting DHW consumption is equalized through the year (there is not a lot more DHW consumption in August vs. February),<u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">the annualized delta will be
<u>dT,ann = (Supply Water Temp – Mean Groundwater Temp)_</u><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">eQuest with no special/extra effort generates Btu/year of metered fuel/electricity used for DHW heating, as part of the rainbow report outputs.
<u></u><u></u></li><ul style="margin-top:0in" type="circle">
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">This is not directly Q, which represents heat applied to the fluid<u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">We need to consider and condense into an annualized figure the “system heating efficiency”, considering<u></u><u></u></li><ul style="margin-top:0in" type="square">
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Combustion efficiency<u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Startup/cycling losses<u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">The presence/frequency/degree of condensing operations and heat recovery, if applicable<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">This system efficiency may naturally involve many or few assumptions depending upon the DHW system type<u></u><u></u></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Then the annualized heat addition is
<u>Q,ann (Btu/h) = (Consumed Btu/year from Fuel Meter End-Use rainbow report) / (System Heating Efficiency) * (1 year / 8760 hours)</u>
<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Taking these together, we can solve for annualized flow rate, GPM,ann:
<u></u><u></u></li><ul style="margin-top:0in" type="circle">
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">GPM,ann = Q,ann / (500 * dT,ann) =
<u>(Consumed Btu/year from Fuel Meter End-Use rainbow report) / (System Heating Efficiency) * (1 year / 8760 hours)</u> / 500 /
<u>(Supply Water Temp – Mean Groundwater Temp)_</u><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">And from the annulalized flow rate, we can calculate kGal/year
<u></u><u></u></li><ul style="margin-top:0in" type="circle">
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><u>GPM,ann * (1 kGal / 1000gal) * (525,600 minutes / year) = kGal/year<u></u><u></u></u></li></ul>
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">So altogether, we’ve had to make a few assumptions to leverage the following shorthand:<b><u><u></u><u></u></u></b></li><ul style="margin-top:0in" type="circle">
<li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in"><b><u>kGal/year = (1 kGal / 1000gal) * (525,600 minutes / year) * (Consumed Btu/year from Fuel Meter End-Use rainbow report) / (System Heating Efficiency) * (1 year / 8760 hours)</u></b><b>
/ 500 / <u>(Supply Water Temp – Mean Groundwater Temp)</u><u></u><u></u></b></li><li class="gmail-m_-7189323800079921200MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in">Aside: At this juncture you should recognize there’s a qualifier that’ll affect a lot of commercial DHW applications. This is kGals/year of water
<i><u>at the given Supply Water Temp</u></i><b>. </b>If the DHW requires a mixing valve at the point of delivery or upstream, to avoid scalding hazards, and you want to calculate the gallons leaving all of the faucets (at a safer, lower temperature), then
you need to factor this result to reflect how many gallons of, say, 120F water will be consumed given fewer gallons of 140 or 180F generated.<b><u></u><u></u></b></li></ul>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u></u> <u></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>TLDR:</b> I’m not sure this approach, which requires a number of assumptions/rounded corners, is much faster than working out the annual delta between supply vs return flow on the DHW loop, as originally suggested by Phil. That does
seem to be the most direct route to understanding exactly what was simulated (with some of the same caveats from that final bullet around mixing valves). <b>3 Points for Phil’s favorite Hogwarts House!</b> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(58,122,70)">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="color:rgb(58,122,70)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(98,100,105)"> Senior Energy Engineer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sharad Kumar via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 19, 2020 2:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] SIM report for annual water consumption?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">Hi Phil,</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">The way that I am thinking about is the option to get the result on the basis of eQuest software back calculations.</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">The calculation on which DHW outputs are based is the formulae Q= 500X GPM X delta T.</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">Now to get the GPM or the actual flow one will have to deter the Q or the total heat across the DHW in Btuh. From the heat delta T across the DHW one will come to know the delta T across the
DHW in degree Fahrenheit.</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">Now from the basic formula Q= 500 XGPM X delta T knowing the two factors GPM and delta T one can easily determine GPM across the DWH.<br>
As per my experience the energy simulation software are based on these easy back calculations of which one is above here.</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">From this Gallon per minute (GPM) or the flow is got ahead.</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">Thanks and Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">Sharad.Kumar</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">Freelancer</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
<h1><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(7,55,99);font-weight:normal">India</span><u></u><u></u></h1>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Phil Jordan <<a href="mailto:phil.jordan@clearesult.com" target="_blank">phil.jordan@clearesult.com</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:43:51 +0000<br>
Subject: [Equest-users] SIM report for annual water consumption?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Does eQUEST output annual water consumption in the SIM report (for DHW)? Or do you have to set up an hourly report to sum the DHW loop “Fluid flow, supply side” variable?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,94,104)">Phil Jordan</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: Phil Jordan <<a href="mailto:phil.jordan@clearesult.com" target="_blank">phil.jordan@clearesult.com</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
Cc: <br>
Bcc: <br>
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 01:39:55 +0000<br>
Subject: Re: [Equest-users] SIM report for annual water consumption?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think the way to do this is to set up an hourly report for both the “Fluid flow, supply side” and “Fluid flow, return side” for the DHW loop – the difference between the two should
be the flow that’s going down the drain at each hour; the sum of this would be the annual DHW water consumption.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But if anyone knows of an easier way to get this from the SIM report please share.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,94,104)">Phil Jordan</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Phil Jordan via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 15, 2020 1:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] SIM report for annual water consumption?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Does eQUEST output annual water consumption in the SIM report (for DHW)? Or do you have to set up an hourly report to sum the DHW loop “Fluid flow, supply side” variable?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,94,104)">Phil Jordan</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
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