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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Thank you Nick for your, once again, detailed and enlightening post. You’re like a fountain of knowledge!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">It comforts me to know that the current curve package in DOE 2.3 will fit most of the manufacturers. This was my main concern and why I was looking to make custom curves.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I always felt the VRF results from DOE 2.2, following the manufacturers simulation guidelines, were a bit aggressive and I tend to be wary of them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Bottom line I guess I’ll stick with the curve package of DOE 2.3 and keep looking at the results, always making sure the results fall in line with my expectations.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.bpa.ca/" target="''"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:blue;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="34" height="31" style="width:.35in;height:.325in" id="_x0000_i1030" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D53BE0.6B721790" alt="Bouthillette Parizeau"></span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#3F3F3F">Patrick</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#3F3F3F">Lapierre</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7D7D7D">_ing.
BEMP</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#A5A5A5">Développement durable et Efficacité énergétique<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#A5A5A5">plapierre@bpa.ca | t: 5143833747x2807<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#BFBFBF"> </span><span style="color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR">De :</span></b><span lang="FR"> Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton@se.com>
<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> 15 juillet 2019 23:50<br>
<b>À :</b> Lapierre, Patrick <plapierre@bpa.ca><br>
<b>Cc :</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org; Bishop, Bill <bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com><br>
<b>Objet :</b> FW: DOE 2.3 - VRF custom curves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Consolas">**CAUTION**********************************************************************<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas"> In User: Patrick the dependent value is exceeding the limits of
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas">VRF knowledge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Consolas">**ERROR************************************************************************<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas">Information dump detected. Last occurrence on 7 / 15 / 22
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas">Simulation Aborted.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">My understand of the “how” to-date is perhaps best informed by sharing the understanding that the doe 2.3 VRF performance curves in their present state may be fairly considered an “evolution”
upon the energyplus library defaults, and with that comes a blend of both benefits and drawbacks in their application.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">The following link will lead you to a zip file of reports and documentation concerning VRF systems, which provide extra insight into the research performed by Hirsch’s team in evaluating and making
the decision to go in this “new” direction for component-based modeling of VRF systems (triggering performance curves with different inputs):
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><a href="https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdeeresources.com%2Findex.php%2Fdeer-versions%2Fdeer2019-and-june-2017-updates%23VRF&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40schneider-electric.com%7Ce24cf74de1a74ca2405908d648db8e2c%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636776505156944555&sdata=qbJUP6UGGYNGj1xgDlHmCFtopfmg3A7jRcnbGazgmcM%3D&reserved=0" title="http://deeresources.com/index.php/deer-versions/deer2019-and-june-2017-updates#VRF">http://deeresources.com/index.php/deer-versions/deer2019-and-june-2017-updates#VRF</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36.0pt"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">(Username: DEER, Password: 2008)<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">For Patrick (and anyone else with similar questions now or in the future), I think you’ll specifically find a lot of answers in the document “VRF_Performance Asssessment_Feb2017_v1.docx”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">I too am still on the learning path, but here are some key takeaways I can share with a certain degree of confidence:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">After working with engineering staff of multiple VRF product vendors and studying their respective published literature/manuals, it was found (by the JJH team) that everyone (or essentially
most manufacturers) is using the same mechanical compressor for their VRF systems<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">… whereas Energyplus curves are based on a large, Danfoss compressor on the order of 12-13 tons – and typically larger VRF systems instead make use of a series of smaller compressors
(more commonly 6-7 tons).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">How exactly these compressors are controlled varies more so between manufacturers, but controlling the compressors as a function of SST was found to be the most common mechanism<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><span style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Ergo, the new library default curves supplied with the current eQuest/doe2.3 package should be compatible and aligning with performance of multiple manufacturers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:72.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><span style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Further, modifying the library performance curves infers you actually have different compressors… better to check that first!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">So why are we seeing SST? Manufacturers rate VRF systems on AHRI conditions (indoor/outdoor DB/WB) and testing standards which
<u>in part</u> stipulate arbitrarily longer refrigerant loops for systems of increasing capacity. Clearly from the direction the eQuest/doe2.3 development has taken, we are leveraging a platform which instead goes one level deeper to give us simulators control
over the construction, length, and other pertinent performance variables concerning the refrigerant circuit design and routing, so that we can work out building and system specific performance to a greater degree of accuracy. The big con here is that it remains
in fact trickier to compare library vs. manufacturer-published system performance (hint – you probably want to instead compare library curves to
<i>compressor</i> performance… hopefully achievable for you with strong vendor support), however the Pro to this direction is that we can step that much closer to evaluating
<i>actual</i> VRF system performance (or viability against alternative system options) for a given building,
<u>considering how the system would be designed</u>. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:72.0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><img border="0" width="656" height="149" style="width:6.8333in;height:1.55in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image006.png@01D53BE0.6B6D5CA0"></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">In my experience, “<u>considering how the system would be designed</u>” in the previous bullet may be characterized as the energy analyst coordinating with others and taking an ownership
role in helping to draft the performance specification for the system under consideration, in coordination with other MEP system designers and whatever vendors/manufacturers are playing a role in recommending some of the detailed inputs we’ll be seeking when
using leveraging doe2.3 for such purposes. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">This decision for the development path of doe2 to “go deeper” than the immediate existing industry framework (or status quo) I think has some precedent established over the last decade
(and perhaps beyond – that’s getting beyond my years). You can look for example to our present options in the eQuest interface for defining GLHX well fields and solar PV arrays. In each case, the optional/required model inputs in a fashion go above and beyond
some of the more commonly prescribed design tools (free and for-cost) in the industry “purpose-built” for aiding in designing such systems. The depth of knowledge required to fully leverage and make use of these inputs borders on academic (great for research,
potentially tricky for practicing engineers who are not specializing in such systems), but allows for some very fine control in studying, modeling, and calibrating such systems.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">At the present (still lacking a ton of project experience under doe 2.3, where I only recently made the full jump for ‘real’ projects), I feel this implementation of VRF system definition
and simulation represents a better balance between “control” and “practical application,” as the most esoteric of inputs seem readily answerable between the reference manual articles provided, a vendor/installer phone call, and/or a coordination meeting with
the system designer. On this just-made-up scale: I’d position the definition and mastery of VRF systems in doe2 as approaching custom chillers in relative difficulty/complexity, but given cooperative/capable specification/design support from a VRF manufacturer
I expect VRF is most often much easier due to the relatively thorough / clear documentation put in front of us via the reference manual… that said, a doe2 “engineering manual” update to include some of the details referenced in the linked documentation/reporting
would certainly help!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">The manufacturer-endorsed approaches available to us for VRF simulation prior to doe2.3 today, in hindsight, feel relatively circumspect. I would hesitate to recommend their application
any longer, considering the relative stability and functionality of the most current doe2.3 platform and the improvements with specific regard to VRF systems
<u>AND</u> DOAS ventilation systems, which are most commonly featured together, in my experience.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">I hope this helps. I also hope that as others build their understanding and learn to apply this knowledge, you’ll share your findings in kind!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy Performance Contracting
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6361<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@se.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@se.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lapierre, Patrick via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 12, 2019 8:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] DOE 2.3 - VRF custom curves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="color:red">[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Good day everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">I’ve been looking at the new VRF capacities of DOE 2.3 and tried coming up with custom VRF curves to match the specifications of my VRF units but I’m having some problems.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">DOE 2.3 curves are function of saturated suction temp (SST) and saturated discharge temp (SDT) – However the specifications I have are functions of Outdoor DB and Indoor WB, and I’m not exactly sure how to translate these
DB / WB temps into SST / SDT. Seems to me I’m missing something here.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">I’ve looked at the guide made by </span><span lang="EN-US">Florida Solar Energy Center – it seems fine for EnergyPlus since its curves uses
</span><span lang="EN-CA">Outdoor DB and Indoor WB. But it doesn’t gives any insight on DOE 2.3 (or at least I didn’t catch any).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpublications.energyresearch.ucf.edu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F06%2FFSEC-CR-1910-12.pdf&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7Cadbc97f1bbc446fc034208d706cc2ebb%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C1%7C636985346336324664&sdata=UTfw4RUuIJt0gNB680MImmNEaHb6NhriRylhZrJfbEU%3D&reserved=0">http://publications.energyresearch.ucf.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FSEC-CR-1910-12.pdf</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I’ve also looked at Maddox’s presentation on VRF – There’s a slide that says that E+ and DOE 2.3 curves uses the same parameters and are interchangeable but I don’t really understand the “how” of it.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So general question goes as follows:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo8">
<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US">Did anyone have success in creating custom VRF curves for DOE 2.3? If so, would you be so kind as to share the method?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]><span lang="EN-US">If not, does everyone simply uses the library curves, whatever the VRF model may be?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Thanks in advance for the insights,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#3F3F3F">Patrick</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif"> <span style="color:#3F3F3F">Lapierre</span></span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7D7D7D">_ing.
BEMP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#A5A5A5">Développement durable et Efficacité énergétique</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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5143833747x2807</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666">Avertissement / Disclaimer</span></b><span style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#666666"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br /><br /><p style="font-family: Verdana; font-size:6pt; color:#666666;"><b>Avertissement / Disclaimer</b></p><p style="font-family: Verdana; font-size:6pt; color:#666666;">Les informations contenues dans le courriel que vous venez de recevoir, y compris les pièces jointes, sont destinées à l’usage exclusif de la (ou des) personne(s) identifiée(s) comme destinataires et sont confidentielles. Si vous n’en êtes pas le destinataire, soyez avisé que tout usage en est interdit. Si vous avez reçu ce courriel par erreur, veuillez le retourner à l’expéditeur et le supprimer complètement de votre système informatique.<br /><br />
The information contained in this communication from the sender is confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking action in relation of the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.<br /><br />This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have been automatically archived.</p></body></html>