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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hey David!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">For eQuest, we are limited to just a couple options for baseboard heating. Either can be leveraged to “fool” the simulation into “uncontrolled,” maximum output for one or
more zones, however this can end up causing issues in accurately quantifying upstream from other heating conditioning sources.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><img width="642" height="573" style="width:6.6875in;height:5.9687in" id="Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image008.png@01D52A73.C057C1C0"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">That said, baseboards at least present such workaround options (i.e. wacky reset schedules always returning 1.0)… We’re up a creek for any other situations like airside system
heating/cooling coils.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ideally, the above reference article might describe a third option “WILD,” which would require an additional specification of a fraction between 0.0 and 1.0. That fraction
would represent a constant valve position, allowing for fully uncontrolled/open flow at all hours the loop is active (1.0) in addition to some number in between (i.e. 0.65), which would allow those of us simulating existing systems to
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo7"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">work out via calibrated modeling efforts the fraction of valves in a whole system which are malfunctioning<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo7"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">model real-world cases where a manual valve is physically cracked part way open (see: select old school radiator systems
with non-hidden “spigot” valves, intended for the occupants to actively tweak the amount of heat dumped into their room)<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">… on further thought, an optional SCHEDULE to apply to this new WILD COIL FRACTION input might be nice for case “b,” allowing for a seasonal approximation of manual valve positioning,
however I don’t run into many cases of facilities where such manual valve systems are operated today as they may have been intended... which is to say I commonly observe dusty cobwebs which I anticipate are more than one season old around such localized valving
controls.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img width="726" height="9" style="width:7.5625in;height:.0937in" id="_x0000_i1040" src="cid:image009.png@01D52A73.C057C1C0" alt="cid:image005.png@01D515A3.47EDD880"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy Performance Contracting
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width="16" valign="top" style="width:11.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">M </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">F </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">E </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6361<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785 . 410 . 3317<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6380<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@se.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@se.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
Lenexa, KS 66219<br>
United States</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:4.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="722" height="49" style="width:7.5208in;height:.5104in" id="_x0000_i1039" src="cid:image010.png@01D52A73.C057C1C0" alt="cid:image006.png@01D515A3.47EDD880"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> David Eldridge <DEldridge@grummanbutkus.com>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 5:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton@se.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:red">[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For eQUEST, wouldn’t you be able to model the additional heat from a malfunctioning or non-existent radiator control by using baseboard heat without thermostat
type control?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">As far as wild cooling coils, I don’t think I’ve tried to address this in the modeling software that I can recall…but would either be a bypass of some sort where
flow beyond the capability of the coils to dissipate – resulting in excess flow and low-DT at the plant – or else overcooling / simultaneous heating and cooling might take a little more involved workaround if the system type doesn’t allow for two coils in
series to reflect the actual conditions. Again you might get an equivalent effect by lowering the coil discharge air temperature and making up the heat with baseboard (in this case set to thermostat control) to provide the heat, even though the heat really
would be coming from a coil in the terminal unit or AHU.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Or for your case where the room temperature ends up too low, where I’ve seen this the most (and must less than on the heating side) would be FCU. In that case,
setting the zone temperature lower would somewhat account for the effect of excess cooling being provided but the simulation will still throttle at times that the real system is not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David S. Eldridge, Jr.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">, P</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">E</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">,
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Caton via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 5:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Duggin, Cory <<a href="mailto:Cory.Duggin@tlc-eng.com">Cory.Duggin@tlc-eng.com</a>>; Jim Dirkes <<a href="mailto:Jim@fsmgmt.co">Jim@fsmgmt.co</a>>; Julien Marrec <<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hey Cory!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I’m thinking of the case for a fan-powered box with a reheat coil (and a stuck open valve):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">What you’re describing (to my doe2-tuned mind & terminology) sounds
<i>in effect</i> a lot like a scheduled internal process/heat load, pushing a specified amount of heat into the space for all hours the loop would be active. A shortcoming (at least in doe2/eQuest) for this approach stems from the following:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">You have asserted (or maybe just inferred?) that in VE, the specified heat transfer can be tied to the activity of the associated hydronic loop. How might you supplement this
approach to also capture the relatively different (perhaps not binary) amount of heat dumped into a space between states when the local fan is in operation vs. not? Is there a way to tie these operations together within the simulation that doesn’t require
processing of interval/hourly data outside of the model and feeding that back in via customized scheduling?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">For shared context, the issue of a “changeover” situation such as with 2-pipe systems and/or seasonal scheduling is easily enough addressed on the doe2/eQuest side of things
by specifying hydronic loop availability and/or operational states over on the hydronic tab (of the eQ interface). Happy to help anyone struggling with that over in the [equest-users] community ;-).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">@ Everyone:
</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> I do, by the way,
<b>very very much</b> appreciate this flood of contributions so late on a Friday with the weekend beckoning us to go out and enjoy life! It’s very encouraging to find validation in our shared worries and solution-paths through other’s experiences and approaches,
and I’m certain I’m not the only one who feels that gratitude.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">~Nick<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Duggin, Cory <<a href="mailto:Cory.Duggin@tlc-eng.com">Cory.Duggin@tlc-eng.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 4:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jim Dirkes <<a href="mailto:Jim@fsmgmt.co">Jim@fsmgmt.co</a>>; Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@se.com">Nicholas.Caton@se.com</a>>; Julien Marrec <<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In the VE you could do it a couple different ways. Assuming the valve is stuck open, I would modify the heating coil control to control heat transfer, so it
would always be providing the amount of heat the coil is designed to at that flow and water temp as long as HHW is available. Make sure to use their advanced coil model though so the available coil capacity will vary depending on the HHW temperature. If
it is a changeover system, you would need to create an availability profile to put on the “wild” coil to limit when it can go wild.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:12.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Cory Duggin, PE, LEED AP BD+C, BEMP</span></strong><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bldg-sim [<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Dirkes via Bldg-sim<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 3:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@se.com">Nicholas.Caton@se.com</a>>; Julien Marrec <<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">..and since you people are distracting me enough to get me thinking about a problem that I have rarely seen...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">In the EnergyPlus world:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">As Julien suggests, we could "play" with infiltration. the ZoneInfiltration:EffectiveLeakageArea object can be scheduled, perhaps, with higher rates in colder weather for opened windows<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I think we could also create zones in such a way as to represent our understanding of the wild coil areas and assign a fictitious zone temperature setpoint of, say, 90F. At the same time, we could schedule the
boiler's operation for cold weather only (which is likely to be the case anyway or people would be screaming at the building operator in the warmer months)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Alternatively, some zones could have their heating setpoint overridden by an EMS routine based on certain weather conditions. We could do the same for infiltration.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Another possibility that comes to mind is to "schedule" boiler efficiency via EMS to be lower during colder weather. This would be a "catchall" value that would be used to calibrate the model
<span style="background:white">(with brute force) </span>to utility bill actual values.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">ps, This sort of issue demonstrates the power of the modeling community to share experience and creativity - so that everyone becomes smarter and better able to provide real solutions!
Let's wring it out.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">pps, Cory, can you share more details for the IES users?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">ppps, Funny to hear someone who lives in France write "y'all"
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif;color:black">🙂😊</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">. Your time in NYC changed you! (But you must have traveled South to hear that term very often)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">James V Dirkes II, PE, BEMP, BCxP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Team Lead - Building Performance<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121;background:white">616 450 8653</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Foresight Management<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><u><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:blue;background:white"><a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__fsmgmt.co_%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Dzhb2MdLBGZ6ylyn5KhRKTw%26r%3DiwVYMKvZX3FI6Ym25lTBWNH494rPH7s_jKjOu5kPxlg%26m%3DxXWJQmy9S39j_tJORR005fLSyZZslnNwOsYJ2u9x0aE%26s%3DSfXPWqS-xRDGCRC3VaMRoBSYzWcYD_3Q2uCKljpMtfQ%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7Ca3c6e8b1e9a54f2c0ef308d6f6989716%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967532578099811&sdata=rtUlzmjy3b23qJ%2F2TQvWMYoe3cocXAuVVgsfomLGK0o%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span style="color:#954F72">https://fsmgmt.co/</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Coffee Conversation:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="margin-bottom:6.0pt;background:white;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#333333;background:white">But to handle human lives with no agreement as to
<b><i>what human beings are</i></b> or <b><i>what the purpose of life is</i> </b>
- that is a formula for chaos.</span><span style="color:#212121"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>
on behalf of Julien Marrec via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 2:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nicholas Caton via Equest-users; <a href="mailto:bldg-sim@onebuilding.org">
bldg-sim@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils</span> <o:p>
</o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hey Nick,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">TL;DR I usually play on the infiltration rate, bumping it higher as needed.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Something I've encountered a lot while working on Multifamily existing buildings in NYC, where you'll encounter most often than not steam systems, one or two pipe. The "wild" coil situation is exacerbated to unreal levels, because these
systems are very old, out of tune, hard to balance, and the ancient knowledge of steam systems is getting lost.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Part of our audit checklist in the winter involved walking around the building to map the windows (usually no building plans exists...) and flag the ones that were opened (you could get in the 30% easily even a deadly cold winter day.
I've personally lived on a run down building when i first got to nyc and on a well below freezing point our windows were opened to avoid sweating to death: the good old "double-hung zone valve" was the only option we had).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">We'd take space temperature readings (and ideally install sensors for a couple of weeks), to set the thermostat setpoints accordingly, and play with infiltration to match our understanding of how people reacted.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">The opposite is true too though, I've seen people run their gas stoves with the door open as a supplemental space heater because it was too damn cold. The cooking gas account is more often than not separated
from the boiler room one in nyc thankfully, so if you find a huge spike in the cooking gas bill in the winter (a HDD correlated component of your bill when you run a regression) it probably can't be explained by "people don't go out as much and stay in to
cook".<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just my two cents/a rant, but i hope this sparks a conversation anyway :)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Y'all enjoy the weekend!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Julien<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">--<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Sent from a mobile device, please excuse the brevity.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Owner<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Direct: +33 6 95 14 42 13<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Website: <a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__www.effibem.com%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Dzhb2MdLBGZ6ylyn5KhRKTw%26r%3DiwVYMKvZX3FI6Ym25lTBWNH494rPH7s_jKjOu5kPxlg%26m%3DxXWJQmy9S39j_tJORR005fLSyZZslnNwOsYJ2u9x0aE%26s%3DV8rPtDKWYRI1grDNKMBmiq1hbD85zHOgKI9hv12ry7g%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7Ca3c6e8b1e9a54f2c0ef308d6f6989716%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967532578099811&sdata=4voqSkI27gHY7CRsMy0R%2BTslcpt2Wbkk3UtfwkEtj54%3D&reserved=0">www.effibem.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">LinkedIn (<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_julienmarrec%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Dzhb2MdLBGZ6ylyn5KhRKTw%26r%3DiwVYMKvZX3FI6Ym25lTBWNH494rPH7s_jKjOu5kPxlg%26m%3DxXWJQmy9S39j_tJORR005fLSyZZslnNwOsYJ2u9x0aE%26s%3Dt8QuP0gLDfCvA1FNpepay_amJjHxX-HXV9Kcp5Aw0Yg%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7Ca3c6e8b1e9a54f2c0ef308d6f6989716%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967532578109804&sdata=4JRO7DICCAEPjStg3PdW0PCCo5BAKObZS0Bj0uE%2B%2FFQ%3D&reserved=0">en</a>)
| (<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__fr.linkedin.com_in_julienmarrec_fr%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Dzhb2MdLBGZ6ylyn5KhRKTw%26r%3DiwVYMKvZX3FI6Ym25lTBWNH494rPH7s_jKjOu5kPxlg%26m%3DxXWJQmy9S39j_tJORR005fLSyZZslnNwOsYJ2u9x0aE%26s%3DTJna9Rp7ZhuwyxZXJ84h6NdVsyzg4iTvXkjmUjkbSlc%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7Ca3c6e8b1e9a54f2c0ef308d6f6989716%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967532578109804&sdata=D3sk5Bdbf3pcU1XOs0oVbsuRFPuZspjLHxEu8wCAdAY%3D&reserved=0">fr</a>)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 21, 2019, at 19:37, Nicholas Caton via Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="xmsonormal">Apologies for the cross-post, however I wanted to ask this question from 2 angles and I feel both communities may benefit from the discussion (if I can spark one).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal">A common reality I’ve observed with “real-world” hydronic systems is that system coils and baseboard/radiator loops fall into a state coined
<u>wild coils</u>. Rather than modulating flow to maintain a measured supply air or room temperature setpoint, flow is
<u>uncontrolled</u>. A heating or reheat coil for example will end up dumping heat at all times the associated circulation loop is active, independent of its associated system’s fan operation, cooling coil activity, or thermostat signals requesting more/less
heating. Occupants in response to wild coils, when they cay, will end up using windows, propping open doorways, plugging in local space heaters / circ fans, and generally suffering in terms of comfort. In just about every case, this scenario presents a win-win
in terms of improved occupant comfort potential in parallel with energy savings potential for whoever is paying the bills.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal">Causes for this situation I’ve encountered more than once include:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Manual Control valves left in an open state, with dusty cobwebs suggesting their presence is unknown to the occupants/building operators
<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Automated valves (electric or pneumatic) which have become mechanically stuck in an open, or partially open position
<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Automated valves (electric or pneumatic) which are otherwise busted due to upstream pneumatic line/system issues or mechanical failures of
the moving parts at the valve <o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo6"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">A valve was never designed and/or installed and/or wired up for control in the first place
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal">For all of this however, I have always struggled in approximating the energy and comfort impacts of “wild” coils in my building energy simulations. Quantifying this impact with some degree of confidence is difficult, but desirable in
cases where I am calibrating to existing utility bills (read: always) and/or asserting the utility savings and comfort improvement impact for fixing/addressing such situations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><b>For the [bldg-sim] family:</b> Are there any 3<sup>rd</sup> party tools, models, or other energy simulation platforms with explicit options for evaluating the comfort and energy impacts of wild coil situations? Is there any research
I could be pointed towards exploring this topic?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><b>For the [eQuest-users] crowd:</b> Can anyone share a best practice or recommendation for simulating this sort of problem-state within a doe2/eQuest model? As far as I know, the native input options are essentially limited to a pair
of “working” coil modulation states: TWO-WAY and THREE-WAY. Here’s an example doe2 reference entry, with language that repeats a couple times over for different scenarios:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><img border="0" width="639" height="253" style="width:6.6562in;height:2.6354in" id="x_Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image003.png@01D5281B.FBA76FA0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal">I personally have taken different approaches, with none being particularly satisfactory. These have included introducing process loads onto the loops concurrently with “free” internal energy source definitions to get those losses dumped
into the spaces experiencing discomfort. I have also played with artificially bumping the thermostat schedules around to reflect measured, uncomfortable temperature states…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal">Any solutions/experiences/shared-commiseration would be very welcome!
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="726" height="9" style="width:7.5625in;height:.0937in" id="x_Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D52816.1E40EA60" alt="cid:image005.png@01D515A3.47EDD880"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy Performance Contracting
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
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<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6361</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785 . 410 . 3317</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6380</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="xmsonormal"><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@se.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@se.com</span></a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="xmsonormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
Lenexa, KS 66219<br>
United States</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre style="text-align:center"><hr size="3" width="100%" align="center"></pre>
<pre><br>Equest-users mailing list<br><a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__lists.onebuilding.org_listinfo.cgi_equest-2Dusers-2Donebuilding.org%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Dzhb2MdLBGZ6ylyn5KhRKTw%26r%3DiwVYMKvZX3FI6Ym25lTBWNH494rPH7s_jKjOu5kPxlg%26m%3DxXWJQmy9S39j_tJORR005fLSyZZslnNwOsYJ2u9x0aE%26s%3DyWWKJ2r_f4IZD5Jrt5xzMDGsQKtrxtFyr_UHcSdNwCg%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7CNicholas.Caton%40se.com%7Ca3c6e8b1e9a54f2c0ef308d6f6989716%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967532578119799&sdata=M7WRTnegj3k%2BrvGFrdT0U7C2lB5xjvqg1F1bnciM5Hc%3D&reserved=0">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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