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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Julien Marrec <julien.marrec@gmail.com> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 1:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton@se.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nicholas Caton via Equest-users <equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org>; bldg-sim@onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hey Nick,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">TL;DR I usually play on the infiltration rate, bumping it higher as needed.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Something I've encountered a lot while working on Multifamily existing buildings in NYC, where you'll encounter most often than not steam systems, one or two pipe. The "wild" coil situation is exacerbated to unreal levels, because these
systems are very old, out of tune, hard to balance, and the ancient knowledge of steam systems is getting lost.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Part of our audit checklist in the winter involved walking around the building to map the windows (usually no building plans exists...) and flag the ones that were opened (you could get in the 30% easily even a deadly cold winter day.
I've personally lived on a run down building when i first got to nyc and on a well below freezing point our windows were opened to avoid sweating to death: the good old "double-hung zone valve" was the only option we had).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">We'd take space temperature readings (and ideally install sensors for a couple of weeks), to set the thermostat setpoints accordingly, and play with infiltration to match our understanding of how people reacted.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">The opposite is true too though, I've seen people run their gas stoves with the door open as a supplemental space heater because it was too damn cold. The cooking gas account is more often than not separated
from the boiler room one in nyc thankfully, so if you find a huge spike in the cooking gas bill in the winter (a HDD correlated component of your bill when you run a regression) it probably can't be explained by "people don't go out as much and stay in to
cook".<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Just my two cents/a rant, but i hope this sparks a conversation anyway :)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Y'all enjoy the weekend!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Julien<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">--<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Sent from a mobile device, please excuse the brevity.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Julien Marrec, EBCP, BPI MFBA<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Owner<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><img width="56" height="19" style="width:.5833in;height:.1979in" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image001.png@01D5284D.58CADBA0"><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Direct: +33 6 95 14 42 13<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Website: <a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.effibem.com&data=02%7C01%7Cnicholas.caton%40se.com%7Cc1250095ae204bf8585808d6f67a420b%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967402284636622&sdata=Cblcd%2FY%2BkY%2FEgfpgI45uWt7JOPmvjT5QHQ9dRDjDHvU%3D&reserved=0">www.effibem.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">LinkedIn (<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fjulienmarrec&data=02%7C01%7Cnicholas.caton%40se.com%7Cc1250095ae204bf8585808d6f67a420b%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967402284646615&sdata=M3LXroyFsNGYswAZvy2K06aOYjJCGxTwPiYnZet7%2BY8%3D&reserved=0">en</a>)
| (<a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffr.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fjulienmarrec%2Ffr&data=02%7C01%7Cnicholas.caton%40se.com%7Cc1250095ae204bf8585808d6f67a420b%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967402284646615&sdata=saDUZBrWj%2FFv5ChXkdiAqazoIuA0pzxdVPR9MOuk2Fg%3D&reserved=0">fr</a>)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Jun 21, 2019, at 19:37, Nicholas Caton via Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">Apologies for the cross-post, however I wanted to ask this question from 2 angles and I feel both communities may benefit from the discussion (if I can spark one).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">A common reality I’ve observed with “real-world” hydronic systems is that system coils and baseboard/radiator loops fall into a state coined
<u>wild coils</u>. Rather than modulating flow to maintain a measured supply air or room temperature setpoint, flow is
<u>uncontrolled</u>. A heating or reheat coil for example will end up dumping heat at all times the associated circulation loop is active, independent of its associated system’s fan operation, cooling coil activity, or thermostat signals requesting more/less
heating. Occupants in response to wild coils, when they cay, will end up using windows, propping open doorways, plugging in local space heaters / circ fans, and generally suffering in terms of comfort. In just about every case, this scenario presents a win-win
in terms of improved occupant comfort potential in parallel with energy savings potential for whoever is paying the bills.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Causes for this situation I’ve encountered more than once include:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Manual Control valves left in an open state, with dusty cobwebs suggesting their presence is unknown to the occupants/building operators
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Automated valves (electric or pneumatic) which have become mechanically stuck in an open, or partially open position
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Automated valves (electric or pneumatic) which are otherwise busted due to upstream pneumatic line/system issues or mechanical failures of the moving parts at the valve
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">A valve was never designed and/or installed and/or wired up for control in the first place
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For all of this however, I have always struggled in approximating the energy and comfort impacts of “wild” coils in my building energy simulations. Quantifying this impact with some degree of confidence is difficult, but desirable in cases
where I am calibrating to existing utility bills (read: always) and/or asserting the utility savings and comfort improvement impact for fixing/addressing such situations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>For the [bldg-sim] family:</b> Are there any 3<sup>rd</sup> party tools, models, or other energy simulation platforms with explicit options for evaluating the comfort and energy impacts of wild coil situations? Is there any research
I could be pointed towards exploring this topic?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>For the [eQuest-users] crowd:</b> Can anyone share a best practice or recommendation for simulating this sort of problem-state within a doe2/eQuest model? As far as I know, the native input options are essentially limited to a pair
of “working” coil modulation states: TWO-WAY and THREE-WAY. Here’s an example doe2 reference entry, with language that repeats a couple times over for different scenarios:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><img border="0" width="639" height="253" style="width:6.6562in;height:2.6354in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image003.png@01D5281B.FBA76FA0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I personally have taken different approaches, with none being particularly satisfactory. These have included introducing process loads onto the loops concurrently with “free” internal energy source definitions to get those losses dumped
into the spaces experiencing discomfort. I have also played with artificially bumping the thermostat schedules around to reflect measured, uncomfortable temperature states…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Any solutions/experiences/shared-commiseration would be very welcome!
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="726" height="9" style="width:7.5625in;height:.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D52816.1E40EA60" alt="cid:image005.png@01D515A3.47EDD880"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy Performance Contracting
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6361</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785 . 410 . 3317</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6380</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@se.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@se.com</span></a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
Lenexa, KS 66219<br>
United States</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre style="text-align:center"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></pre>
<pre><br>Equest-users mailing list<br><a href="https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.onebuilding.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fequest-users-onebuilding.org&data=02%7C01%7Cnicholas.caton%40se.com%7Cc1250095ae204bf8585808d6f67a420b%7C6e51e1adc54b4b39b5980ffe9ae68fef%7C0%7C0%7C636967402284656617&sdata=mRJhnnKIKA%2FDiQG6GHXoduwzeXI81HxbO%2FETIPZ9wO4%3D&reserved=0">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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