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<p class="MsoNormal">GREAT ideas so far (keep em’ coming)! I’m going to forward a couple Reponses that didn’t get CC’ed to both lists in short order.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy Performance Contracting
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6361<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785 . 410 . 3317<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6380<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@se.com"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@se.com</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
Lenexa, KS 66219<br>
United States</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Michael Wetter <mwetter@lbl.gov> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 4:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Melissa Crowe <MCrowe@cmta.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton@se.com>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org; bldg-sim@onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Bldg-sim] [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">You could set up a model with the Modelica Buildings Library, which models valves and dampers explicitly, and computes the flow distribution based on the pressure distribution in the piping (or duct) network. You can then overwrite the
control signal to keep the valve always at a certain position.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">All the best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 2:06 PM Melissa Crowe via Bldg-sim <<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org">bldg-sim@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hi Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Ah I like “wild coil”. Makes this industry feel much more exciting.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">We usually call it “simultaneous heating and cooling”. And sometimes it is not so much wild as a poor controls design. eg For a given zone the VAV box is on one thermostat,
and baseboard radiation on another.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">In eQuest, from my experience, it really depends on the situation but one thing I have done is:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m-4051470774574961695msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
With the “Cool Control” = Constant, set VAV box minimum flow high so that reheat is required to meet set point. Adjusting DAT and VAV min flow (within reason so as not to throw fan energy out of wack) until the results are reconciled with utility billing.
(Noting that I back into it starting from proper setpoints )<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On the fly I can’t see how messing with valves (in eQuest) would help.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I usually save infiltration adjustments as suggested by Julien to model poor fan tracking (excess exhaust ,poor building pressurization)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Best<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Melissa Crowe, LEED AP, BEMP
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="mailto:mcrowe@cmta.com" target="_blank">mcrowe@cmta.com</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">508-647-9200 x 225</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@se.com" target="_blank">Nicholas.Caton@se.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 21, 2019 1:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:bldg-sim@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">bldg-sim@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] BEST PRACTICES: Wild Coils<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Apologies for the cross-post, however I wanted to ask this question from 2 angles and I feel both communities may benefit from the discussion (if I can spark one).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">A common reality I’ve observed with “real-world” hydronic systems is that system coils and baseboard/radiator loops fall into a state coined
<u>wild coils</u>. Rather than modulating flow to maintain a measured supply air or room temperature setpoint, flow is
<u>uncontrolled</u>. A heating or reheat coil for example will end up dumping heat at all times the associated circulation loop is active, independent of its associated system’s fan operation, cooling coil activity, or thermostat signals requesting more/less
heating. Occupants in response to wild coils, when they cay, will end up using windows, propping open doorways, plugging in local space heaters / circ fans, and generally suffering in terms of comfort. In just about every case, this scenario presents a win-win
in terms of improved occupant comfort potential in parallel with energy savings potential for whoever is paying the bills.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Causes for this situation I’ve encountered more than once include:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m-4051470774574961695msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
Manual Control valves left in an open state, with dusty cobwebs suggesting their presence is unknown to the occupants/building operators<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m-4051470774574961695msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
Automated valves (electric or pneumatic) which have become mechanically stuck in an open, or partially open position<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m-4051470774574961695msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
Automated valves (electric or pneumatic) which are otherwise busted due to upstream pneumatic line/system issues or mechanical failures of the moving parts at the valve<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m-4051470774574961695msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
A valve was never designed and/or installed and/or wired up for control in the first place<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="gmail-m-4051470774574961695msolistparagraph"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">For all of this however, I have always struggled in approximating the energy and comfort impacts of “wild” coils in my building energy simulations. Quantifying this impact with
some degree of confidence is difficult, but desirable in cases where I am calibrating to existing utility bills (read: always) and/or asserting the utility savings and comfort improvement impact for fixing/addressing such situations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>For the [bldg-sim] family:</b> Are there any 3<sup>rd</sup> party tools, models, or other energy simulation platforms with explicit options for evaluating the comfort and energy
impacts of wild coil situations? Is there any research I could be pointed towards exploring this topic?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>For the [eQuest-users] crowd:</b> Can anyone share a best practice or recommendation for simulating this sort of problem-state within a doe2/eQuest model? As far as I know,
the native input options are essentially limited to a pair of “working” coil modulation states: TWO-WAY and THREE-WAY. Here’s an example doe2 reference entry, with language that repeats a couple times over for different scenarios:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<img border="0" width="639" height="253" style="width:6.6562in;height:2.6354in" id="gmail-m_-4051470774574961695Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image003.png@01D5284D.43979CA0"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I personally have taken different approaches, with none being particularly satisfactory. These have included introducing process loads onto the loops concurrently with “free” internal
energy source definitions to get those losses dumped into the spaces experiencing discomfort. I have also played with artificially bumping the thermostat schedules around to reflect measured, uncomfortable temperature states…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Any solutions/experiences/shared-commiseration would be very welcome!
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="726" height="9" style="width:7.5625in;height:.0937in" id="gmail-m_-4051470774574961695Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D5284D.43979CA0" alt="cid:image005.png@01D515A3.47EDD880"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy Performance Contracting
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">F </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6361</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785 . 410 . 3317</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913 . 564 . 6380</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@se.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@se.com</span></a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
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