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<p class="MsoNormal">Matt,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are a few dozen variables for the new CONDENSING-UNIT command for which custom hourly reports can be generated. I don’t see one specific to heat recovery but maybe you could report the hourly cooling load and hourly heating load for
a VRF-HEAT-PUMP type and then again for the VRF-HEAT-RCVR type and compare the two.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Bill<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:black">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Senior Energy Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:3.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
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(585) 698-1956</span></i></b><b><i><span style="color:#002060"> </span>
</i></b><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">F: (585) 325-6005<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:blue">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:blue">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">134 South Fitzhugh Street<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rochester, NY 14608
<img border="0" width="26" height="23" style="width:.2708in;height:.2395in" id="Picture_x0020_17" src="cid:image011.png@01D4DF19.685367E0" alt="cid:image011.png@01D4DF19.685367E0">
</span><i><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#00B0F0">Ask me why Carbon Fee & Dividend may be right for you.</span></i><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Matthew S. Garlick <msg@tbcxinc.com> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 20, 2019 12:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill <bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I mean heat recovery between zones within a branch selector circuit. When a circuit has fan coils in heating and cooling, it can trade refrigerant between those zones and reduce energy use. In DOE 2.3, this is calculated automatically with
the air source VRF system type but the work around does not. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black;border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in"><img border="0" width="125" height="54" style="width:1.302in;height:.5625in" id="Picture_x0020_18" src="cid:image004.jpg@01D4DF1A.9F5D42A0" alt="Image removed by sender. TBCx"></span><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<br>
<b>Matt Garlick, CxA, CEM, BEMP</b><br>
Mobile: 801-907-5654<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Bishop, Bill <bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 20, 2019 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Matthew S. Garlick <msg@tbcxinc.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Matt,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What do you mean by “heat trading”?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Bill<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Matthew S. Garlick <<a href="mailto:msg@tbcxinc.com">msg@tbcxinc.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 19, 2019 4:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>; Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@se.com">Nicholas.Caton@se.com</a>>; Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Bill, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That’s an interesting idea, running it as air-source VRF and the water-source work-around for a comparison. Is there a report in DOE 2.3 that shows the amount of heat trading the air-source VRF system is calculating? I’ve done an exceptional
calculation in DOE 2.2 for the USGBC presenting a 5% heating/cooling load trading as energy savings and has it be accepted, but I’d rather lean on a calculation if that’s available!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Bishop, Bill <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 19, 2019 1:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@se.com">Nicholas.Caton@se.com</a>>; Matthew S. Garlick <<a href="mailto:msg@tbcxinc.com">msg@tbcxinc.com</a>>; Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Christopher and Matt,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If either of you model water-cooled VRF in eQUEST/DOE-2.3 using the WSHP work-around, kindly share your experiences with the list. In particular, if you can also run an alternative system using the new air-cooled VRF capability, you can
compare the water-cooled VRF workaround to the built-in air-cooled VRF and see if the results make sense. This shouldn’t be too difficult as both WSHP and VRF can be modeled with PVVT systems.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m not sure which white paper is being referred to by Matt/Mitsubishi below. It may be the Application Note 2023 that Matt shared yesterday (3/18), which is only slightly modified from an earlier version that I had dated February 2014.
The revised Application Note (October 2017) is still based on DOE-2.2 and makes no acknowledgement of the new capabilities in DOE-2.3. Mitsubishi has several white papers for VRF available here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.mitsubishipro.com/white-papers">https://www.mitsubishipro.com/white-papers</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Seventhwave did an M&V study of two cold-climate water-source VRF systems, where they modeled water-to-air heat pumps using PVVT systems in eQUEST/DOE-2.2. You may find their report helpful:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.seventhwave.org/publications/water-source-vrf-report">https://www.seventhwave.org/publications/water-source-vrf-report</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Bill<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Caton via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 19, 2019 1:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Matthew S. Garlick <<a href="mailto:msg@tbcxinc.com">msg@tbcxinc.com</a>>; Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I can assert for the group my core understanding: water-sourced VRF’s are “just” very efficient water-source heatpumps. The only substantial mechanical difference (from an energy model perspective) are
<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">The variable speed refrigerant compressor – which can be approximated from the library defaults simply with better unitary cooling efficiency (EIR) inputs and/or revised curves<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">The potential for intra-zonal heat recovery between refrigeration circuits. To my experience with water-source VRF, this is not commonly sought after in the system design / performance
specifications, however this savings potential can still be approximated leveraging custom hourly outputs.<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="726" height="9" style="width:7.5625in;height:.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image014.png@01D4DF19.685367E0" alt="cid:image014.png@01D4DF19.685367E0"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Schneider Electric</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6361
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
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United States</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Matthew S. Garlick via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 18, 2019 8:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="color:red">[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Christopher, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Unfortunately I didn’t get the white paper either (that text was copied from a chain within Mitsubishi). What Mitsubishi did provide is attached however and I included my copy of a Mitsubishi methodology in eQUEST.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hope this helps!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">: 801-907-5654</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 17, 2019 9:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Matthew S. Garlick <<a href="mailto:msg@tbcxinc.com">msg@tbcxinc.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you Matt,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have used the WSHP work-around a number of times with reasonable results. At the time, VRF curves weren’t available. I have done models with more detailed information using DOE2.1e with more reasonable results. I would be grateful for
a copy of your white paper (the attachment didn’t arrive) for an upcoming eQuest model.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Christopher R Jones, P.Eng.</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">T+ 1 416-644-0252</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Matthew S. Garlick [<a href="mailto:msg@tbcxinc.com">mailto:msg@tbcxinc.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 15, 2019 5:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Christopher, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I was hoping someone else would chime in on this since it’s the question I’m asking as well! Working with Mitsubishi a few months back, I got the following:
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">“In eQUEST, you can model water-source VRF as a standard WSHP and then choose the option for staged or multi speed compressor to approximate the performance of an inverter compressor. Using standard WSHP definitions in eQUEST will not
be far off from water-source VRF operation since water-source equipment isn't subject to the capacity de-rates air-source VRF is subject to, so essentially the variable speed nature of the compressor is the only thing that is missing to properly model water-source
VRF.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Additionally, in eQUEST the EIR (energy input ratio - described in the first attachment) has an overwhelming impact on the resulting energy performance - much more so than the capacity and part-load curves. Since the EIR is calculated
and entered for each specific condenser being modeled, this should reflect water-source VRF operation with a reasonable degree of accuracy.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">We could update the attached white paper and associated eQUEST curves to include water-source VRF, however, most open source energy modeling is now trending toward Energy Plus and the various interfaces that run this engine like OpenStudio.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Talking to Doug Maddox who helped develop the air source VRF in DOE 2.3, he said he thought that approach is reasonable.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Please let me know if you find anything else, I’ve got a big water source VRF model in my near future!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><br>
<b>Matt Garlick, CxA, CEM, BEMP</b><br>
Building Efficiency Engineer | TBCx</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com">Christopher.r.Jones@wsp.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 14, 2019 7:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] eQuest VRF question<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Is it possible to model a water-source VRF system? Typically these systems have a source/sink water loop similar to a water-source heat pump loop with a boiler and fluid cooler. I did RTFM and it appears that only an air cooled condenser
is available for the VRF system at this time.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the past, I used the water-source heat pump system to approximate a water-source VRF system. It looks like I will have to use that strategy with DOE2.3.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:6.0pt;mso-fareast-language:FR"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR">Christopher R. Jones</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:FR">, P.Eng.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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