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Thanks for the background Joe,<br>
I suppose nuances would have been a better description.<br>
I can see now how the application of residential studies would lead
to that method of input. So building construction style would be a
great influence. With high rise or commercial construction, ie
concrete floors and ceilings, fire walled compartmentalization, the
ceilings and floors would be very tight. Most penetrations would be
fire stopped, leaving the exterior walls as the main contributor.
Electrical and mechanical systems are predominantly surface run.
Final HVAC tends to be on a per floor or per tenant setup.<br>
Residential is definitely a different problem and an area I spend
much of my time. I agree that it is the external envelope. I
participated in a CMHC log home leakage study about 20 years ago.
Blower door tests of around 50 homes. My home was the top in the
study at 1.8 ACH, many in the 5 to 10 ACH, and an outlier at 20+ as
the blower door capacity was exceeded. The R-2000 standard was/is
1.5 ACH at 50 Pa. I spent quite a bit of time with the engineering
company personnel conducting the testing. Once the flow was stable
they proceeded though the house with smoke wands and looked for
leaks. Worst areas generally were the top and bottom plates of the
walls, sill plate, then around doors and windows. Electrical
penetrations in the ceiling ranked high as well. At the time there
was a huge amount of testing on conventional houses due to the
R-2000 program. But as you say it was volume based and no breakout
in the individual components. That was just done by observation and
smoke tests. So generally it was at the junction points of the
different elements.<br>
Now that I really think about the problem, it would make creating an
algorithm for DOE2 very difficult. To this day the testing is done
this way and there is no attempt to normalize the results with
temperature and wind speed, or even number of floors, just volume.<br>
When I find some time I will take a look at the Sherman-Grimsrud
Model much more closely. It does come up frequently in the
technical publications I read. I do appreciate the complexity of
the DOE2 machine and the time it has taken for everyone to get it to
this point in time. Sometimes you just forget how big the problem
is of applying it to the vast range of buildings we model, the
details we have to pay attention to, the science behind it and the
new situations and technology that we adapt the engine too.
Exciting times I say and man do you have to pay attention.<br>
Bruce<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/2/2018 1:45 AM, Joe Huang wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:20180302064610.IZTL2981.toroondcmxzimta03-srv.bellnexxia.net@tordcvbicmrk02">
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<p>Bruce,</p>
<p>I have to say that DOE-2 normalizing the Leakage-Fraction by
the floor area is not a quirk, but a result of the infiltration
studies done to date that are predominantly, almost exclusively,
done on single-family residences. I'm thinking here of the work
by Max Sherman and David Grimsrud at LBNL that produced the
Sherman-Grimsrud Model, the only infiltration model I know of
that's physically based, i.e., the model related the
infiltration to the temperature difference and wind pressure,
coupled with the leakage area of the building. For
single-family residences, that leakage area is best scaled by
the floor area, since a large part of the leakage area is in the
ceiling. Therefore, I don't agree that leakage scales better
with the wall area than the floor area. On an intuitive basis,
it should probably scale by the exterior surface area, i.e.,
walls + windows + ceiling, but I have yet to see any study that
quantified the amount of leakage through each of these
components. As we move to multi-family or commercial buildings,
the surface/volume ratio will clearly dominate and for interior
floors with only the wall and windows exposed to the outside,
yes, the infiltration probably does scale with the exposed wall
area. However, there's a dearth of information on the normalized
leakage of walls. <br>
</p>
<p>Joe<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="90">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com" moz-do-not-send="true">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/1/2018 9:19 PM, Bruce
Easterbrook wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:a8d44949-b78b-08c3-445f-4bb206d2aa9a@bellnet.ca">
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Thank's Joe, I didn't realize that. There are many quirks with
DOE2 and eQuest. I haven't looked at that part of the fine
print recently. Leakage does depend on the wall area and not
the floor area in real terms. Buildings have many different
wall heights, plenums or not, ducted or not, etc. I would guess
after normalization that one would have to be careful with how
manipulations in geometry are done to achieve other effects in
the model. Infiltration can have a serious effect on a model.<br>
I can remember a past model where I used this technique for an
actual butting of 2 industrial spaces/buildings. The one area
was a cable casing thermal setting zone, 1/2 height of the
warehouse/machinery high bay zone that was adjacent to it. I
was more concerned with the door and seal between the 2
buildings. I possibly missed the infiltration difference seeing
it was based on floor area and not wall area. I will have to
re-read the fine print.<br>
Bruce<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/1/2018 10:32 PM, Joe Huang via
Equest-users wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:20180302033320.IOBW2981.toroondcmxzimta03-srv.bellnexxia.net@tordcvbicmrk01">
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charset=utf-8">
<p>I don't think Bruce's comment is germaine to the problem
posed by Menush, since Menush is asking about infiltration
and not heat transfer through interior walls. As far as I
know from DOE-2 (always have to add that caveat because I
don't work much in eQUEST), infiltration rates are
normalized per floor area, rather than external wall area,
mainly because that's how the infiltration models have been
developed, i.e., effective leakage areas have always been
defined as per floor area. If you don't think that's right,
you can always adjust the input values by the ratio of the
external wall area to the floor area, as you've described,
but then you're on your own in coming up with the
correlation, <br>
</p>
<p>Joe<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="90">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com" moz-do-not-send="true">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/1/2018 6:44 PM, Bruce
Easterbrook via Equest-users wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5669491f-8e14-0dce-e943-4b7f2f5dfa09@bellnet.ca">
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charset=utf-8">
Hi Menush,<br>
I don't think you have the same thing. eQuest will treat 2
shells butted to each other differently than a single
interior wall separating 2 zones in a shell. It treats the
2 butted walls as exterior walls with a tiny space between.
They are the same wall in your thinking but they are not.
You can delete one of them and make the remaining wall an
interior wall and assign the proper butting spaces on each
side of the wall as sharing the wall and transferring
heating and cooling through the wall. Or you can add an
interior wall to the original space and separate it into 2
zones. As you have noticed there is a difference in the way
eQuest treats your 2 solutions. It is particular. Now you
need to pick the configuration that matches what you are
trying to model in such a way that eQuest does/treats the
wall in the way you want it to work.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/1/2018 5:23 PM, Menush
Akbari via Equest-users wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m having an issue with
infiltration and wondering if anyone else has noticed
this. When I’m in wizard mode, I build a very simple
rectangular shell and I change the infiltration rate
for perimeter zones to 0.05cfm/ft2. I leave the core
zone infiltration rate to the eQuest default value
(0.001cfm/ft2). From my understanding, the perimeter
zone entered value in wizard mode is based on exterior
gross wall area. When I move on to detail mode, eQuest
changes the value to an infiltration value per floor
area instead of exterior wall area. The values so far
make sense and I can do the math and get the same
numbers eQuest calculates in detail mode. No problems
here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The problem however happens when I
create different shells. For example, let’s say I have
the same rectangular building as mentioned above, but
I split this up into two different shells next to each
other (two square shells), therefore one of the walls
of each square shell is an interior wall, which means
I should not see an infiltration of 0.05 cfm/ft2 of
the gross wall area. However when I finish building
these two shells in detail mode (which would be
identical to one rectangular shell), the infiltration
value is not accurate anymore. Instead of the same
numbers as my first model (one rectangular shell), the
second model calculates an exterior wall infiltration
value for the interior walls that are budded up
against each other.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Has anyone come across this? Is
this a quirk with eQuest and just needs to be changed
manually in detail mode, or am I doing something wrong
here?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the help.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">Menush Akbari<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">BEng, PEng, BEMP, CMVP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">Senior Energy Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">Mission Green Buildings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">(Mission Green Buildings is the
trading name of Mission Green Limited)<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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lang="EN-CA"><a
href="mailto:makbari@missiongreenbuildings.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">makbari@missiongreenbuildings.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA"><a
href="http://missiongreenbuildings.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://missiongreenbuildings.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
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alt="MGB 5 Years 2" class="" height="85"
width="323" border="0"></span><span
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