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<p>The point I'm trying to make is that DOE-2 and presumably eQUEST
derives the infiltration rate from user input of the
EFFECTIVE-LEAKAGE-FRACTION for the SPACE that is expressed in
CFM/ft2 of floor area. This infiltration rate is not affected by
the amount of exterior walls in the spaces or their proximity to
each other. In your examples, aren't the infiltration rates for
the building just the sum of the infiltration rates for the zones
(presumably perimeter and core) adjusted by their floor area ? <br>
</p>
<p>Joe<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="90">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/2/2018 7:33 AM, Daric Adair wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:83e4b5c8de6f41b59224b0a81b8ced35@hendersonengineers.com">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">All;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Confused as to
how Bruce’s answer isn’t directly applicable. What he
detailed in the first instance is directly in line with my
experiences. eQuest wizard modes doesn’t realize that two
abutting/touching shells should have interior walls. If a
space wall touches a shell wall, an exterior wall is
created.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">If a zone boarders a shell, eQuest
creates an exterior wall.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">If a zone does not touch a shell edge,
eQuest makes an adiabatic interior wall.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1
lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="color:#1F497D">If two shells are touching and each
have zones touching the common wall, two exterior walls are
created; one in each zone. Wizard eQuest doesn’t distinguish
if two shells are 0 feet apart/touching or if they are 25
feet apart. (example described below)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">If eQuest uses
exterior wall area to calculate a floor area normalized
infiltration rate, and there are ‘extra’ exterior walls
which are actually interior walls where shells touch, then
the infiltration rate will be calculated as though the two
shells were never touching. This will increase the
calculated infiltration rate since these are not actually
interior walls.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bruce’s
solution only neglected to mention that the infiltration
rate will either need to be corrected for this condition, or
ignored/neglected. The second option is not to say
infiltration is not important – it is important – but
requires modeler judgement and some math. The length/area of
the touching walls is also a factor to consider. If project
is a large industrial setting as described in thread, yes,
probably should check/revise. If a small connecting
corridor, probably minor and can be ignored. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A">Did a quick
(very simplified ) example. All examples have: 10ft high.
No plenum. Set Perimeter infiltration to 0.05 CFM/sf. 0.0
core infiltration.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A">- Made two
shells, 50ft x 50ft each. 2 spaces per shell, spliting
shell equally. Placed the shells touching. The calculated
infiltration is 0.0400 cfm/ft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A">- Made two
shells, 50ft x 50ft each. 2 spaces per shell, spliting
shell equally. Placed the shells 50 feet apart. The
calculated infiltration is 0.0400 cfm/ft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A">- Made one
shell, 100ft x 50ft each. 4 spaces per shell, spliting
vertically,such that the zones are the same
area/dimensions as the previous examples. The calculated
infiltration is 0.0400 cfm/ft in the end cap spaces, and
0.0200 CFM/sf in the middle spaces. This is due to less
exterior wall area (as expected).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A">- Made two
shells, 50ft x 50ft each. 2 spaces per shell, same spaces
as above. But – offset the edge of the shells when
drawing in wizard mode such that the edge of the spaces
were not the edge of the shell(s) (refer to image). Placed
the shells such that the two zones were touching. The
calculated infiltration is 0.0400 cfm/ft in the end cap
spaces, and 0.0200 CFM/sf in the middle spaces; matching
as if done in a single shell.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A">The last
example allows the user to change the wall from adiabatic
to a heat transfer surface easily. Can also modify the
infiltration rate as needed & detailed ablve. PNNL has
published several reports on infilatration rates which can
be references as well for good information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A">Let me (and
all of us) know if this seems at odd with previous
experiences or overlooked a detail. Thanks in advance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#44546A;text-transform:uppercase"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#383A35;text-transform:uppercase">DARIC
R ADAIR</span></b><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#383A35;text-transform:uppercase">
PE, CEM, BEMP </span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#383A35"><br>
Mechanical Engineer, Energy Analyst <br>
<br>
</span><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#008C15;text-transform:uppercase">Henderson
Engineers</span></b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#383A35"><br>
<b><span style="text-transform:uppercase">Tel</span></b>
(913) 742-5530 <br>
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moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#383A35">daric.adair@hendersonengineers.com</span></a><br>
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style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#383A35;text-transform:uppercase">Licensed
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> Bruce Easterbrook
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca">mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 1, 2018 11:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Joe Huang
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com"><yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Infiltration issues
whith more than one shell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thank's Joe, I
didn't realize that. There are many quirks with DOE2 and
eQuest. I haven't looked at that part of the fine print
recently. Leakage does depend on the wall area and not the
floor area in real terms. Buildings have many different wall
heights, plenums or not, ducted or not, etc. I would guess
after normalization that one would have to be careful with how
manipulations in geometry are done to achieve other effects in
the model. Infiltration can have a serious effect on a model.<br>
I can remember a past model where I used this technique for an
actual butting of 2 industrial spaces/buildings. The one area
was a cable casing thermal setting zone, 1/2 height of the
warehouse/machinery high bay zone that was adjacent to it. I
was more concerned with the door and seal between the 2
buildings. I possibly missed the infiltration difference
seeing it was based on floor area and not wall area. I will
have to re-read the fine print.<br>
Bruce<span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/1/2018 10:32 PM, Joe Huang via
Equest-users wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I don't think Bruce's comment is germaine to the problem
posed by Menush, since Menush is asking about infiltration
and not heat transfer through interior walls. As far as I
know from DOE-2 (always have to add that caveat because I
don't work much in eQUEST), infiltration rates are
normalized per floor area, rather than external wall area,
mainly because that's how the infiltration models have been
developed, i.e., effective leakage areas have always been
defined as per floor area. If you don't think that's right,
you can always adjust the input values by the ratio of the
external wall area to the floor area, as you've described,
but then you're on your own in coming up with the
correlation,
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Joe<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Joe Huang<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>White Box Technologies, Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Moraga CA 94556<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com" moz-do-not-send="true">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(o) (925)388-0265<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(c) (510)928-2683<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>"building energy simulations at your fingertips"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/1/2018 6:44 PM, Bruce Easterbrook
via Equest-users wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi Menush,<br>
I don't think you have the same thing. eQuest will treat
2 shells butted to each other differently than a single
interior wall separating 2 zones in a shell. It treats
the 2 butted walls as exterior walls with a tiny space
between. They are the same wall in your thinking but they
are not. You can delete one of them and make the
remaining wall an interior wall and assign the proper
butting spaces on each side of the wall as sharing the
wall and transferring heating and cooling through the
wall. Or you can add an interior wall to the original
space and separate it into 2 zones. As you have noticed
there is a difference in the way eQuest treats your 2
solutions. It is particular. Now you need to pick the
configuration that matches what you are trying to model in
such a way that eQuest does/treats the wall in the way you
want it to work.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/1/2018 5:23 PM, Menush Akbari
via Equest-users wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m having an issue with infiltration
and wondering if anyone else has noticed this. When I’m
in wizard mode, I build a very simple rectangular shell
and I change the infiltration rate for perimeter zones
to 0.05cfm/ft2. I leave the core zone infiltration rate
to the eQuest default value (0.001cfm/ft2). From my
understanding, the perimeter zone entered value in
wizard mode is based on exterior gross wall area. When I
move on to detail mode, eQuest changes the value to an
infiltration value per floor area instead of exterior
wall area. The values so far make sense and I can do the
math and get the same numbers eQuest calculates in
detail mode. No problems here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The problem however happens when I
create different shells. For example, let’s say I have
the same rectangular building as mentioned above, but I
split this up into two different shells next to each
other (two square shells), therefore one of the walls of
each square shell is an interior wall, which means I
should not see an infiltration of 0.05 cfm/ft2 of the
gross wall area. However when I finish building these
two shells in detail mode (which would be identical to
one rectangular shell), the infiltration value is not
accurate anymore. Instead of the same numbers as my
first model (one rectangular shell), the second model
calculates an exterior wall infiltration value for the
interior walls that are budded up against each other.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Has anyone come across this? Is this
a quirk with eQuest and just needs to be changed
manually in detail mode, or am I doing something wrong
here?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the help.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">Menush Akbari</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">BEng, PEng, BEMP, CMVP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">Senior Energy Engineer</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">Mission Green Buildings</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA">(Mission Green Buildings is the trading
name of Mission Green Limited)</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Corbel",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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lang="EN-CA"><a
href="mailto:makbari@missiongreenbuildings.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">makbari@missiongreenbuildings.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span
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lang="EN-CA"><a
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moz-do-not-send="true">http://missiongreenbuildings.com</a></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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