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<p>Christopher,</p>
<p>You're exactly right. It probably takes the building several
years to warm up the ground beneath the foundation to a long-term
steady-state.</p>
<p>When I was doing thousands of foundation simulations for the
Building Foundation Design Handbook (Labs, Carmody, Sterling,
Shen, Huang, and Parker, Underground Space Center, University of
Minnesota 1988), Lester Shen and I discussed whether to
initialize the simulations with or without the building. We ended
up deciding to initialize without a building, i.e., for an empty
site, on the logic that the results would be more representative
for new construction. However, if you're trying to calibrate your
model for an existing building, you might want to initialize for
ten years to pick up the fact that the building warms up the
ground over time. Even initializing for bare ground took about
five years. We solved the runtime issue by doing four years at a
monthly time step, one year at a daily time step, before finally
doing the run. Worked out fine.</p>
<p>Joe<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="90">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/2018 11:54 AM, Jones,
Christopher wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It
seems to me that the centre of building underslab
temperature gradient would change over time. When the
building is first turned on, the underslab may be close to
the average deep ground temperature. Depending on soil type,
with the room temperature approximately constant, I would
expect that underslab soil temperature to warm up?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
haven’t been able to find a paper addressing the subject.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:6.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"
lang="EN-GB">Christopher R. Jones</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"
lang="EN-GB">, P.Eng.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"
lang="EN-GB">Technical Specialist<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"
lang="EN-GB">Sustainability & Energy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><img
id="Picture_x0020_15"
src="cid:part1.3E81CA0A.A73DF731@whiteboxtechnologies.com"
class="" height="37" width="78"></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR">T
+1 416-644-0252<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR">2300
Yonge Street, Suite 2300<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR">Toronto,
ON M4P 1E4 Canada</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"
lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"><a
href="wsp.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#0563C1">wsp.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:blue;mso-fareast-language:EN-CA"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F;mso-fareast-language:FR"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6EA900;mso-fareast-language:FR">Please
consider the environment before printing...<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-CA"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">
Equest-users
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joe Huang via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 4:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab on Grade Floor
Heat Loss<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>The use of F2 factors for foundation heat flows has always
been flawed. The simplest explanation for the F2 factor is
that it's the effective U-value per perimeter length. This
formulation assumes that there are no heat loses through the
foundation away from the perimeter, which is simply not true
(think of the case in Minnesota where the constant deep ground
temperatures is between 55 and 60 F). The other problem is
the delta-T used to derive the F2 factor is not clearly
defined. All the studies I've seen (albeit all these are
from 30 years ago or more) derived them against the outdoor
air temperature, or more exactly, Tin - Tair. This then
opens up the question whether in DOE-2 the slab should be
modeled as an exterior wall or an underground wall? The
third problem is that by treating the slab as a monolithic
surface, it lumps the heat flow characteristics along the
perimeter with those of the slab core , which differ in both
magnitude and time lag.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>When I last had a project on ground heat flows 17 years
ago, I proposed a simplified method where the foundation was
divided into three regions (perimeter 1' , near perimeter
1-4', and core >4' deep), each with 3 conductances to the
daily average air temperature , average air temperature over
the past three weeks, and the deep ground temperature. This
method was implemented in an enhanced version of DOE-2.1E, and
from what I hear, adopted into California Title-24. If
anyone is interested to read the report, just send me an
e-mail.<a href="#yiv9572653599Picture_x0020_4"
moz-do-not-send="true"><br>
</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The good news for everyone here is that there is now a
RTAR/WS (ASHRAE terminology for a RFP) being circulated in
TC 4.7 (Energy Calculations) that aims to develop a better
simplified ground model to replace the F2 factors. Stay tuned
but be forewarned that it takes ASHRAE at least a year to
approve a project and another half year to pick a contractor,
so don't expect any products for another 3 years.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Joe<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Moraga CA 94556<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com" moz-do-not-send="true">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com" moz-do-not-send="true">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(o) (925)388-0265<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(c) (510)928-2683<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>"building energy simulations at your fingertips"<o:p></o:p></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/2/2018 12:26 PM, Paul Diglio via
Equest-users wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42721">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Thanks
Bill, you are always such a big help. That is what I
thought, but just wanted to run it by the forum.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42720">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42723">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Thanks
to you too Nathan.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42618">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42619">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Paul
Diglio<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42620">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42626">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42625">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42624">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42623">
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center;background:white"
align="center">
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
<hr size="1" align="center" width="100%">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
"Bishop, Bill"
<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com></a><br>
<b>To:</b> Nathan Miller <a
href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nathanm@rushingco.com></a>;
Paul Diglio
<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net></a>;
<a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
"equest-users@onebuilding.org"</a> <a
href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
<equest-users@onebuilding.org></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 2, 2018 3:13 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Slab on Grade
Floor Heat Loss</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42658">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div id="yiv9572653599">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42657">
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42656">
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42700">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Paul,</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42655">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Your
reviewer may have thought that if the
slab was showing up as an “exterior
surface” (such as on the LV-D report)
than the model was simulating heat
transfer between the zones and the
outside air through the slab. But
eQUEST/DOE-2 simulates heat transfer
across underground surfaces differently,
as described in the UNDERGROUND-WALL and
UNDERGROUND-FLOOR section of the DOE-2
help documentation. The main difference
is that ground temperature is used
instead of the OA temperature as the
outside temperature. The monthly ground
temperature is taken from the weather
file, or can be entered as
SITE-PARAMETERS:GROUND-T.</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42765">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42660">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The
eQUEST wizard creates custom
constructions for each underground
surface based on inputs for
Exterior/Cavity Insulation and Perimeter
Floor Insulation. Underground floors are
given constructions with low U-factor
(high R-value) consistent with the lower
heat transfer that would be expected.</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42766">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42699">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">~Bill</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42662">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42669">
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42697">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">William
Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP
| Pathfinder Engineers &
Architects LLP</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<table class="MsoNormalTable"
style="width:394.8pt;border-collapse:collapse"
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42668"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="0"
border="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="min-height:13.45pt"
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42666">
<td style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:13.45pt"
width="345">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:105%"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">Senior Energy Engineer</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</td>
<td rowspan="6"
style="width:136.35pt;padding:0in
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:13.45pt"
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:105%"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%"><img
id="yiv9572653599Picture_x0020_4"
src="cid:image007.jpg@01D39C38.6333FF10"
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height="38" width="56"
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src="cid:image008.jpg@01D39C38.6333FF10" moz-do-not-send="true"
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border="0"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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width="345">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:105%"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">134
South Fitzhugh Street</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;color:#1F497D">
</span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">Rochester,
NY 14608</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="min-height:12.4pt">
<td style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:12.4pt"
valign="top" width="345">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:105%"><b><i><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">T: (585) 698-1956</span></i></b><b><i><span
style="color:#002060">
</span></i></b><span
style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">F: (585) 325-6005</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="min-height:9.8pt">
<td style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in
5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:9.8pt"
valign="top" width="345">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:105%"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><a
href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">
</span><span
style="color:#1F497D"><a
href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="min-height:24.6pt">
<td style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in
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valign="top" width="345">
<div style="margin-top:3.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:105%"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><img
id="yiv9572653599Picture_x0020_5"
src="cid:image009.png@01D39C38.6333FF10"
alt="http://png-5.findicons.com/files/icons/977/rrze/720/globe.png"
moz-do-not-send="true"
height="32" width="34"
border="0"></span><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;line-height:105%;color:#00B0F0">Carbon
Fee and Dividend - simple,
effective, and market-based.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42694">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id="yiv9572653599yqt28255">
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42684">
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42683">
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42682">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan Miller
via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02,
2018 2:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nathan Miller <a
href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nathanm@rushingco.com></a>;
Paul Diglio
<a
href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net></a>;
<a
href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">
equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users]
Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Fixed
my typo in the F-factor heat loss calc
(should have read 50 ft of perimeter)…
See below.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42693">
<div style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Nathan
Miller, PE, LEED AP BD+C –
</span></b><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst</span></i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-top:3.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:115%;background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">RUSHING</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">
|
<b>O</b> 206-285-7100 | <b>C</b>
207-650-3942</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42692">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:115%;background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><a
href="http://www.rushingco.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#6F1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42689">
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42688">
<div
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42687">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank"
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42686"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan Miller
via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 2,
2018 2:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Diglio <<a
href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>;
<a
href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users]
Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">In
the past I’ve done a conversion of
F-factor (perimeter based)
slab-on-grade heat loss to U-factor
(area) and input that in on a
zone-by-zone basis if I really wanted
to nail down SOG heat loss. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Example-
Space is 20’ x 30’, but the exposed
perimeter is only two of the faces
(20’ + 30’). Lets say it is
uninsulated SOG.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">F-factor
from 90.1: F = 0.73 Btu/(hr*ft*F)<br>
<br>
Perimeter based heat loss: 0.73
Btu/(hr*ft*F) * 50 ft = 36.5 BTU/(hr
*F)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Then
we can back-calculate the U-factor to
assume for the whole floor to equate
to that heat loss: 36.5 BTU/(hr *F) =
600 SF * X BTU/(hr*SF*F) -> U =
0.0608 BTU/(hr*SF*F)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">You
can create a custom floor construction
for each space to provide the U-factor
to produce equivalent heat loss that
the F-factor calcs are telling you
lose. For purely core zones (no
exposed perimeter), I guess the
F-factor calcs are telling us were not
really losing heat through that slab
(doesn’t’ seem right, but it probably
is relatively small)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-bottom:4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Nathan
Miller, PE, LEED AP BD+C –
</span></b><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst</span></i><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style="margin-top:3.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:115%;background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">RUSHING</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">
|
<b>O</b> 206-285-7100 | <b>C</b>
207-650-3942</span><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:115%;background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><a
href="https://url.emailprotection.link/?a6X-5ry0mOOudUi-eMfQ7K9LfplwNoMV9idJhgEyf85c%7E"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:#6F1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio
via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 2,
2018 2:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users]
Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11245">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I
recently submitted a model to the
local utility company for an
incentive. Part of the buildings'
first floor is slab on grade.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11310">
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11309">
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">One
of the comments I received back is
that this erroneously shows up as
an exterior surface and I should
delete all the slab on grade
floors in the component tree.
Doesn't seem right to me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11372">
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11378">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">I
did a few and it does reduce the
overall energy consumption. In
the 3D model, no floors show, just
open to the interior of the zone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11371">
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11373">
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">So
is eQuest assuming that without
this floor, there is no heat loss
out the bottom of the zone? Is
this reasonable?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11387">
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11388">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Thank
you,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11246">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
id="yiv9572653599yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11247">
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">Paul
Diglio<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" moz-do-not-send="true">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
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