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--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Paul,</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Following 90.1 Table G3.1 #5: “…..All components of the building envelope in the proposed design shall be modeled as shown on architectural drawings or as built for existing building envelopes…..Equivalent dimensions shall be assumed for each exterior envelope component type <in the baseline> as in the proposed design; i.e., the total gross area of exterior walls shall be the same in the proposed and baseline building designs. The same shall be true for the areas of roofs, floors, and doors, and the exposed perimeters of concrete slabs on grade shall also be the same in the proposed and baseline building designs.”</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">We can debate how precisely the actual areas should be captured in the model, but I think most would agree that it is a mistake if the modeled area is off by 50%, or doubled, or tripled, which is unfortunately not uncommon in the compliance models. If proposed design has better roof insulation than the baseline, doubling the area of the roof in the model would double the associated savings. Reviewers typically don’t have budget to do sensitivity analysis to evaluate the impact of the grossly misrepresented areas on the performance rating or incentive, so it is a standard practice to flag significant deviations in the review comments. </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">You wrote below: “….<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">In the model I referenced, about 1/2 of the first floor is over a conditioned space and one half is slab on grade. So I defined this floor as over an unconditioned space in the DD wizard as this should result in a reasonable average.</span> “ This conflicts with the requirements of 90.1 quoted above, but irrespective of that, I think many on this forum would disagree that it’s a good approximation. Aside from that, when you specify floor as adjacent to unconditioned space in Wizard, it’s actually modeled as an exterior surface adjacent to ambient conditions (see below). Bill described implication of that in his last response. 90.1 2010 Table 5.5-5 does not require insulation for non-residential slab-on-grades, but mass floors adjacent to exterior must be U-0.064 max. Modeling slab-on-grade as an exterior surface exposed to ambient conditions will grossly exaggerate heating use in the baseline and proposed designs, skewing contribution of heating-related improvements (e.g. more efficient heating system in the proposed design) toward performance rating and incentive. </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><img width="852" height="260" style="width:8.875in;height:2.7083in" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image004.jpg@01D39DD7.69582470"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">It’s not too hard to create surfaces of the correct area and type (adjacent to exterior, ground, etc.) in eQUEST Detailed Data Edit interface if you don’t try to get a pretty 3D view. It’s OK if the building looks like a cubist painting as long as you reasonably capture the areas of exterior walls, roofs, etc. for each thermal block. (But watch out for the impact of geometry on the exterior shading and daylighting.) </p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Changing exterior surfaces may affect infiltration load because in Wizard the infiltration is entered as flow per square foot of the <u>exterior wall area</u>. So when you change the area of exterior walls in the model (e.g. enter slab on grade as an exterior surface), you are also changing the infiltration flow CFM. </p><p class="MsoNormal"><img width="678" height="160" style="width:7.0583in;height:1.6666in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image006.jpg@01D39DD7.69582470"></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">I would also argue that modeling is science, and not an art, but this post is already way too long <span style="font-family:Wingdings">J</span>.</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Paul Diglio [mailto:<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 04, 2018 1:07 PM<br><b>To:</b> Maria Karpman <<a href="mailto:maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net">maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net</a>>; Bishop, Bill <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>; Nathan Miller <<a href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com">nathanm@rushingco.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a>; Glen P. Eigo <<a href="mailto:glen.eigo@uinet.com">glen.eigo@uinet.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss</p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4678"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Maria:</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4749"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4679"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Yes, sometimes I model an entire floor as having roof construction if some of the floor is exposed to outdoor conditions. If part of this floor is under a conditioned space, it is possible to delete the roof constructions under the conditioned area. If it is possible, I model several shells per floor in order to more accurately define which areas are exposed to outdoor conditions and which areas are adjacent to a condition space. Often this is not possible since multiple zones span the condition-unconditioned area of the shell above and we run into the problem of these zones having external walls down the middle of them.</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4750"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4683"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">The same follows for underground floors. In the model I referenced, about 1/2 of the first floor is over a conditioned space and one half is slab on grade. So I defined this floor as over an unconditioned space in the DD wizard as this should result in a reasonable average.</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4751"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4686"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">If I remove the first floor external slab on grade floors as I have stated, it is interesting that before and after the removal of the floors, the slab on grade floor conductance is 0 in both cases. By removal of the floor, the conductance remains 0 but the infiltration changes based on the LS-B reports.</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4781"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4688"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">I have spent time experimenting and have found that deleting the roof constructions in zones adjacent to conditioned areas in both the baseline and proposed models results in approximately a 1/10 of one percent change in the annual MBTU consumption.</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4788"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4689"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">For example, when removing a roof construction in a zone with a plenum under a conditioned zone, the wall conductance increases and the infiltration increases. Looking at the unconditioned plenum for this zone, when removing the roof construction, the wall conduction increases, the roof conduction decreases and the infiltration decreases.</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4790"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4691"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">It is my expectation that the utility reviewer is at least as competent as I am in eQuest. And even though I have been submitting models over 10 years, I have a lot to learn. <br><br></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4791"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><br><br></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4694"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Going in circles to correct a 1/10 of one percent difference is unreasonable. I have gone back on unpaid time to calibrate models based on the annual energy consumption post model and post project completion. The annual utility cost of the model is often 30-50% greater than the actual cost since the building is not operated per the requirements of Appendix G, 90.1. For example, in a residential high-rise, the apartment fans do not run whenever the zone is occupied, and this makes a huge difference in the annual energy consumption. Per 90.1, the model is not intended to predict actual energy consumption, but is just a comparison between a code compliant model vs. the proposed model operated to the requirements of the standard.</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4792"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4699"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Sure, anyone can nitpick any one of the several hundred assumptions used in models, but a competent reviewer should know which will affect the model significantly and would need to be revised. Modeling is not a science, it is an art.</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4701"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4702"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Thank you,</span></p><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4704"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4735"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Paul Diglio</span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4740"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4739"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4738"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517766705625_4737"><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><hr size="1" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> Maria Karpman <<a href="mailto:maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net">maria.karpman@karpmanconsulting.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; "Bishop, Bill" <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>; Nathan Miller <<a href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com">nathanm@rushingco.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 2, 2018 4:34 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p><div id="yiv0810656751"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Some eQUEST models do have redundant roofs, exterior or underground floors sandwiched between the Shells created in DD Wizard. These can be easily identified by hiding some exterior and interior surfaces from 3D view, to look “inside” the building, like in the screenshots below. There is also a nice summary of surface areas at the end of LV-D report, which can be used to check that the modeled “UNDERGROUND” and “ROOF” areas are as expected for the projects. That said, reviewers too make mistakes. We all know that sometimes they are hands full </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:black">J</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><img border="0" width="377" height="300" style="width:3.925in;height:3.125in" id="yiv0810656751Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image008.jpg@01D39DD7.69582470"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><img border="0" width="620" height="318" style="width:6.4583in;height:3.3166in" id="yiv0810656751Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image010.jpg@01D39DD7.69582470"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Maria Karpman </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">LEED AP, BEMP, CEM</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">________________</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Karpman Consulting</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.karpmanconsulting.net/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">www.karpmanconsulting.net</span></a> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Phone <span class="MsoHyperlink"><span style="color:#1155cc">860.430.1909</span></span> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">41C New London Turnpike</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Glastonbury, CT 06033</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yiv0810656751yqt20647"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio via Equest-users<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 3:27 PM<br><b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>>; Nathan Miller <<a href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com" target="_blank">nathanm@rushingco.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss</span></p></div></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42721"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks Bill, you are always such a big help. That is what I thought, but just wanted to run it by the forum.</span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42720"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42723"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks to you too Nathan.</span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42618"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42619"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Paul Diglio</span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42620"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42626"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42625"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42624"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42623"><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><hr size="1" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> "Bishop, Bill" <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> Nathan Miller <<a href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com" target="_blank">nathanm@rushingco.com</a>>; Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; "<a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 2, 2018 3:13 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Equest-users] Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42658"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><div id="yiv0810656751"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42657"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42656"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42700"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Paul,</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42655"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Your reviewer may have thought that if the slab was showing up as an “exterior surface” (such as on the LV-D report) than the model was simulating heat transfer between the zones and the outside air through the slab. But eQUEST/DOE-2 simulates heat transfer across underground surfaces differently, as described in the UNDERGROUND-WALL and UNDERGROUND-FLOOR section of the DOE-2 help documentation. The main difference is that ground temperature is used instead of the OA temperature as the outside temperature. The monthly ground temperature is taken from the weather file, or can be entered as SITE-PARAMETERS:GROUND-T.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42765"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42660"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">The eQUEST wizard creates custom constructions for each underground surface based on inputs for Exterior/Cavity Insulation and Perimeter Floor Insulation. Underground floors are given constructions with low U-factor (high R-value) consistent with the lower heat transfer that would be expected.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42766"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42699"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Regards,</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">~Bill</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42662"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42669"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42697"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP | Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="526" style="width:394.8pt;border-collapse:collapse" id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42668"><tr style="min-height:13.45pt" id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42666"><td width="345" style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:13.45pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">Senior Energy Engineer</span></b></p></div></div></td><td width="182" rowspan="6" style="width:136.35pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:13.45pt" id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42665"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%"><img border="0" width="56" height="38" style="width:.5833in;height:.4in" id="yiv0810656751Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image017.jpg@01D39DD7.69582470"> <img border="0" width="46" height="39" style="width:.475in;height:.4083in" id="_x0000_i1030" src="cid:image019.jpg@01D39DD7.69582470"></span></p></div></div></td></tr><tr style="min-height:4.55pt"><td width="345" valign="top" style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:4.55pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span style="font-size:5.0pt;line-height:105%"> </span></p></div></div></td></tr><tr style="min-height:9.8pt"><td width="345" nowrap valign="bottom" style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:9.8pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">134 South Fitzhugh Street<span style="color:#1f497d"> </span>Rochester, NY 14608</span></p></div></div></td></tr><tr style="min-height:12.4pt"><td width="345" valign="top" style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:12.4pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">T: (585) 698-1956</span></i></b><b><i><span style="color:#002060"> </span></i></b><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">F: (585) 325-6005</span></p></div></div></td></tr><tr style="min-height:9.8pt"><td width="345" valign="top" style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:9.8pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span style="color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%"> </span><span style="color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span></p></div></div></td></tr><tr style="min-height:24.6pt"><td width="345" valign="top" style="width:258.45pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;min-height:24.6pt"><div style="margin-top:3.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span style="color:#1f497d"><img border="0" width="34" height="32" style="width:.35in;height:.3333in" id="yiv0810656751Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image020.png@01D39DD7.69582470" alt="http://png-5.findicons.com/files/icons/977/rrze/720/globe.png"></span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;line-height:105%;color:#00b0f0">Carbon Fee and Dividend - simple, effective, and market-based.</span></p></div></div></td></tr></table></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42694"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yqt28255"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42684"><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42683"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42682"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan Miller via Equest-users<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 2:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> Nathan Miller <<a href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com" target="_blank">nathanm@rushingco.com</a>>; Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Fixed my typo in the F-factor heat loss calc (should have read 50 ft of perimeter)… See below. </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42693"><div style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Nathan Miller, PE, LEED AP BD+C – </span></b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Mechanical Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst</span></i><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div style="margin-top:3.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">RUSHING</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> | <b>O</b> 206-285-7100 | <b>C</b> 207-650-3942</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42692"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="http://www.rushingco.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6f1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42689"><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42688"><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_42687"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan Miller via Equest-users<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 2, 2018 2:33 PM<br><b>To:</b> Paul Diglio <<a href="mailto:paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">paul.diglio@sbcglobal.net</a>>; <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">In the past I’ve done a conversion of F-factor (perimeter based) slab-on-grade heat loss to U-factor (area) and input that in on a zone-by-zone basis if I really wanted to nail down SOG heat loss. </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Example- Space is 20’ x 30’, but the exposed perimeter is only two of the faces (20’ + 30’). Lets say it is uninsulated SOG. </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">F-factor from 90.1: F = 0.73 Btu/(hr*ft*F)<br><br>Perimeter based heat loss: 0.73 Btu/(hr*ft*F) * 50 ft = 36.5 BTU/(hr *F)</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Then we can back-calculate the U-factor to assume for the whole floor to equate to that heat loss: 36.5 BTU/(hr *F) = 600 SF * X BTU/(hr*SF*F) -> U = 0.0608 BTU/(hr*SF*F)</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">You can create a custom floor construction for each space to provide the U-factor to produce equivalent heat loss that the F-factor calcs are telling you lose. For purely core zones (no exposed perimeter), I guess the F-factor calcs are telling us were not really losing heat through that slab (doesn’t’ seem right, but it probably is relatively small) </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Nathan Miller, PE, LEED AP BD+C – </span></b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Mechanical Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst</span></i><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div style="margin-top:3.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">RUSHING</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> | <b>O</b> 206-285-7100 | <b>C</b> 207-650-3942</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://url.emailprotection.link/?a6X-5ry0mOOudUi-eMfQ7K9LfplwNoMV9idJhgEyf85c~" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6f1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Diglio via Equest-users<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 2, 2018 2:19 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Slab on Grade Floor Heat Loss</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div><div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11245"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">I recently submitted a model to the local utility company for an incentive. Part of the buildings' first floor is slab on grade.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11310"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11309"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">One of the comments I received back is that this erroneously shows up as an exterior surface and I should delete all the slab on grade floors in the component tree. Doesn't seem right to me.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11372"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11378"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">I did a few and it does reduce the overall energy consumption. In the 3D model, no floors show, just open to the interior of the zone.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11371"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11373"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">So is eQuest assuming that without this floor, there is no heat loss out the bottom of the zone? Is this reasonable?</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11387"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11388"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Thank you,</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11246"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div><div id="yiv0810656751yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1517591308519_11247"><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black">Paul Diglio</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>