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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I think there are two separate issues. The vendor is comparing their system as a retrofit to an older and inefficient system. For Appendix G modeling purposes
you wouldn’t compare against that existing hot water system, the baseline would be the code minimum new system as selected by your building’s characteristics.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So even if the system did save 30% to 40% against existing storage systems, it won’t likely do that against an Appendix G baseline.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Arriving at the 30% to 40% figure for existing building retrofits is a whole different can of worms – tank losses could be reduced for sure. The thermal efficiency
is shown to be very high. There are many other losses in the existing system that may also come into play though, so the rule of thumb savings figure is difficult without saying “percentage of what” – it wouldn’t affect the flow rates as you mention which
is an additional opportunity, and if the system is recirculating it will have losses from that activity.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Looks like a good product though, definitely some energy reduction potential for sites that fit the capacity and venting requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Morteza Kasmai via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:42 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users <equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Tank less DWH<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#274E13">Nick,</span><span style="color:#274E13"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#274E13">Thank you for your guidance, as always your suggestions is very helpful.</span><span style="color:#274E13"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#274E13">I am agreeing with you that serious energy savings related to service hot water serving is through low flow fixtures, however the manufacturer provided some engineering data, including
thermal efficiency, of the water heater (page 8 of the attach file) that I thought can be helpful to achieve more savings.</span><span style="color:#274E13"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#274E13">I wanted to be sure on selecting the correct system for the base model. As I understand from your suggestions, since this is storage less heater in the proposed design, for the baseline
model, I have to select “Gas instantaneous water heater” in Table 7.8 and there are no any other options, is this correct?</span><span style="color:#274E13"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#274E13">I truly appreciate your help,<br>
Morteza</span><span style="color:#274E13"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Nicholas Caton <<a href="mailto:Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com" target="_blank">Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I don’t believe I’ve ever documented 30-40% Service Hot Water savings on unitary heating equipment alone. Either
your designer/manufacturer must also be counting on serious reductions with low flow fixtures, or somebody is trying to sell something...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The Appendix G Table G3.1 will direct you back towards the table at the end of the Service Water Heating section
in 90.1 for direct guidance on what the baseline case should reflect in relation to your proposed case instantaneous heaters. Looks like for your make/model you’ll be needing to address both thermal combustion efficiency AND determine standby losses based
upon the capacity of the unit cited. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I’d advise caution before immediately entering “n/a” for proposed case standby losses in your LEED documentation.
Consider whether in fact there is a storage tank somewhere, or other opportunities outside of combustion and piping distributions for heat to leave the system.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">For the proposed case side, I might poke the manufacturer (time allowing) to provide you a thermal efficiency (combustion
+ condensate recovery) at a sampling of firing rates for a given delta (ground water
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings">à</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> delivery temp), and use that data to evaluate whether the library curves eQUEST assigns for instantaneous gas boilers is in
alignment or otherwise needs tweaking. If you don’t have time to dive this far I’d simply be mindful to ensure baseline + proposed case curves are at least matching.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hope that helps!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="726" height="9" id="m_1949692946875582329Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D2E9B1.54BC3770"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Morteza Kasmai via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 19, 2017 10:54 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Tank less DWH</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#274E13">Hello, everyone
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<br>
I am trying to model a new DWH (Intelli-hot system Gen-II-iQ1501)</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#274E13">for a mid-rise residential
building. This is a high-output, on-demand water heater, which eliminates storage tank, standby losses, and mixing valves. Per the manufacturers and the project’s engineer notes, expected savings on hot water for this type of WH compare to a regular storage
tank WH is 30% to 40%. I am wondering what type of WH should I select for the Baseline Case in order to comply with ASHRAE/LEED energy modeling protocol.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#274E13"><br>
Your thoughts and suggestions would be highly appreciated,<br>
Morteza</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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