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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I agree with Daric’s analysis that an “Airflow First” reset priority should be modeled for baseline VAV systems. I don’t see anything in Appendix G. that implies
a temperature-first control strategy. Appendix G. states requirements for both SAT reset and VAV minimum flow. The SAT reset is to be applied “under the minimum cooling load conditions”. That implies that between minimum and design cooling load conditions,
airflow rate is adjusted, which means the airflow rate is adjusted first. I tried “TEMP-FIRST” on one of my baseline models and it saved 3.6% cooling energy, added 1.8% fan energy and saved 0.6% heating energy for a net building energy savings of 0.4% versus
baseline with AIRFLOW-FIRST. (So AIRFLOW-FIRST is better in my n=1 case for showing savings in the proposed design vs. baseline.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">~Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:black">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:#006600">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:black"> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Fee and Dividend - simple, effective, and market-based.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pasha Korber-Gonzalez via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 24, 2017 3:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daric Adair <Daric.Adair@hei-eng.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Air Temp Reset Interpretation Please...?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All-- Thank you for this in depth discussion and taking time to go over all of this. (I was away from work for a few days, thus my delayed response.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with the commentary regarding how REAL LIFE operations happen in VAV systems, and yes modulating airflow is the first approach. However, i did always find it odd that temp first was stated in Appendix G, but who am I to question
Appendix G, right?<br>
<br>
As for the discussion of direction from the PNNL User's Manual-- that is interesting, and I hadn't seen that document prior to now because I am still only working on projects that reference ASHRAE 90.1-2007. Therefore I have had no need or time to look at
the 2010 version or any supporting docs...which brings us to the next debate:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Why should anyone be referencing a 2010 version document for guidance for a 2007 version compliance model/project? Therefore it seems prudent to stand firm to follow exactly what the governed/reference standard states-explicitly which
is "temperature reset." <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">But then- Thank you Daric for confirming that the 2007 version User's Manual doesn't specifically guide us on how to meet the criteria of that section. AND thank you Daric for also conducting a minor experiment on your model. (I will
do the same with a couple of mine this week.) <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">So based on what I have learned from this awesome discussion/debate, I will assume that my third party reviewer (non GBCI group) was indeed referencing the PNNL User's Manual for the 2010 version, possibly out of habit, and/or not even
aware that the LEED guided project they were contracted for reviewing (my model, which I was contracted to produce by the Architect & owner) is in fact registered as a LEED 2009 project that is referencing and following ASHRAE 90.1-2007 version.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hmm, I'm in a quandary of how to take action for my model based on this questionable review comment- who is not the actual LEED reviewer. This seems like a weird situation to be in...<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks again for all your input on this topic!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Pasha Korber<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Ph 308-763-1593<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.korberenergy.com">www.korberenergy.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 8:49 AM, Daric Adair <<a href="mailto:Daric.Adair@hei-eng.com" target="_blank">Daric.Adair@hei-eng.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Agreed on ventilation. But 90.1 Appendix G addresses the VAV box minimums for Baseline models in G3.1.3.13/G3.1.3.14.
The box minimums must take ventilation into account.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Fan energy is a major element. Several of my more recent models have had fan energy on par with heating
and cooling energy. Both for baseline and proposed models. Fans unload nicely…which is a blessing and a curse.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Running some quick diagnostic tests on a couple of my most recent models, the difference in the two
control strategies didn’t yield a massive difference. But one test does not a trend make….in any sense, the Temperature Frist reset set was 0.29% lower on a cost basis…</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Another factor specific to eQuest, when using Airflow first control, is the ‘</span>MIN-RESET-FLOW’
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">variable. This defaults to 0.66. Which from the help files seems to indicate that the it will only allow the fan to reset to this level (0.66 in this case/by default) before starting
temperature reset. Modifying this value impacts when the system will start to modify the DAT. This did have an impact on the results, but not very underwhelming at best from my very limited testing pool….</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In short, it gets back to which element should unload first – fans vs chiller/boiler. Fan curves are
dictated for Appendix G (and Fan laws). Chiller curves are not provided/dictated for Appendix G, but performance is. Similar for boilers. In a ‘real’ system with actual equipment curves, it would be a balance between savings from the fan slowing vs savings
from central plant equipment unloadng (which has more complex relationships).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A;text-transform:uppercase"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A;text-transform:uppercase"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A;text-transform:uppercase"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A;text-transform:uppercase"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;text-transform:uppercase">DARIC R. ADAIR</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;text-transform:uppercase"> PE, C.E.M.</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#566C11">Henderson Engineers, Inc. | </span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#566C11">Mechanical Engineer, Energy Analyst</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
<br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-variant:small-caps">dir</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
<a href="tel:(913)%20742-5530" target="_blank">913 742 5530</a> <b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">tel</span></b>
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<b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">email</span></b> <a href="mailto:daric.adair@hei-eng.com" target="_blank">
daric.adair@hei-eng.com</a></span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
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</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Licensed in KS.<span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Bruce Easterbrook [mailto:<a href="mailto:bruce5@bellnet.ca" target="_blank">bruce5@bellnet.ca</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2017 10:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daric Adair <<a href="mailto:Daric.Adair@hei-eng.com" target="_blank">Daric.Adair@hei-eng.com</a>>; Jennings, Coles <Coles.Jennings@MasonandHanger.com>; PKConsulting <<a href="mailto:pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com" target="_blank">pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com</a>>;
Shaun Martin <<a href="mailto:smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com" target="_blank">smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Air Temp Reset Interpretation Please...?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">I may be all wet here but one other consideration is OA. If there is no DOAS then the VAV system is supplying the OA to the zones. A drop in flow could reduce the OA below minimum requirements
for the zones. A temp first reset would maintain airflow and the OA air portion. With energy consumption, cooling and heating are the most expensive components of the flow and then the fan energy. This is why economizers are very energy efficient in the
right conditions.<br>
So ultimately you have to meet ASHRAE 90.1 and also 62.1. These are also baseline systems, just setting the low bar before we start to tinker. All points and justification come from the magnitude you can exceed the baseline. The baseline has been ratcheting
up, things are not as easy now and almost all the low hanging fruit is gone.<br>
I was reading an article in the online Journal this morning from 2014. Part of it concerned fan efficiency, FC, AF and plenum with direct and belt drive. Now that efficiency is getting right down to belt slippage you know there isn't much left to play with.<br>
Bruce Easterbrook P.Eng.<br>
Abode Engineering<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On 4/20/2017 6:54 PM, Daric Adair via Equest-users wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">All;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Great discussion.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For context, the text of G3.1.3.12 is: “Supply Air Temperature Reset (System 5 through8). The air temperature
for cooling shall be reset higher by 5F under the minimum cooling load conditions.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Stepping back, the reset is said to occur at ‘the minimum cooling load condition.’ Thinking through
how a typlica/real VAV system will control, the terminal box dampers will close towards their minimum as the cooling load in a zone decreases. In a ‘real’ building this should cause the Supply fan to see a pressure increase and slow down to get back to its
static pressure setpoint. At some point if all of the boxes are at a minimum position (aka, minimum cooling demand), the Supply Air Temperature should/can be increased.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Looking through the above, this would indicate an Air Flow first reset, before increasing the discharge
temperature.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Per the eQuest help file, it would seem to indicate that a ‘Temp-First’ approach attempts to reset
the temperature, without modulating the fan down. This seems fairly odd in a ‘real’ system since in that if any single zone calls for cooling, no reset occurs, no energy saved. Even if it is a Baseline, it should have some sort of gut check to it. If it were
a ‘real’ system and going Prescriptive path, it would be subject to Section 6.5.2. I didn’t see any requirement (Mandatory or Prescriptive) for DAT reset….(but I may be missing it….)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Therefore, I’d think in a VAV system the Air-Flow first modulation, then allow the DAT to reset would
be the intended path.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Another minor bit of confusion here: The 90.1 ASHREA User’s Manual does not offer much guidance here.
There is new guide from PNNL for the 90.1-2010 standard, which is what is also mentioned below. Just want to clarify for readers that these are two separate (and both are useful) guides.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A;text-transform:uppercase"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A;text-transform:uppercase"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#44546A;text-transform:uppercase"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">DARIC R. ADAIR</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt"> PE, C.E.M.</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#566C11">Henderson Engineers, Inc. | </span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#566C11">Mechanical Engineer, Energy Analyst</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-variant:small-caps">dir</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
<a href="tel:(913)%20742-5530" target="_blank">913 742 5530</a> <b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">tel</span></b>
<a href="tel:(913)%20742-5000" target="_blank">913 742 5000</a> <b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">fax</span></b>
<a href="tel:(913)%20742-5001" target="_blank">913 742 5001</a> <b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">tx id</span></b> #F-001236
<b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">email</span></b> <a href="mailto:daric.adair@hei-eng.com" target="_blank">
daric.adair@hei-eng.com</a></span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
<a href="http://www.hei-eng.com/" target="_blank"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#566C11">www.hei-eng.com</span></b></a>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Licensed in KS.<span style="color:#1F497D"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Jennings, Coles via Equest-users
[<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2017 10:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> PKConsulting <a href="mailto:pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com" target="_blank">
<pasha.pkconsulting@gmail.com></a>; Shaun Martin <a href="mailto:smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com" target="_blank">
<smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Air Temp Reset Interpretation Please...?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I wanted to chime in quickly, because this is an interesting question that we’ve gone back and forth
on in my office as well.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I don’t agree with the stance that, because the section is labelled supply air temperature reset, therefore
temperature first is the correct input. Airflow modulation is a given for VAV systems (baseline systems 5 through 8), so the question is not whether airflow modulates, but what takes precedence between the airflow modulation inherent in a VAV system and the
temperature modulation also required by 90.1. The three possible combinations are reflected in the available eQUEST inputs: “temperature first,” “airflow first,” or “simultaneous.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In my view, the correct order of priority between temperature and airflow modulation is not something
the standard directly addresses. Absent clear direction in the standard, I would then look for any
<a href="https://www.ashrae.org/standards-research--technology/standards-interpretations/interpretation-for-standard-90-1-2010https:/www.ashrae.org/standards-research--technology/standards-interpretations/interpretation-for-standard-90-1-2010" target="_blank">
formal interpretations</a> of the standard issued by ASHRAE, and if that still doesn’t clear it up, then a user’s manual may be the next best thing. A user’s manual such as the PNNL manual at least provides specific direction by a neutral third party, which
is often a great way to make a case to the reviewing authority (GBCI reviewer, code official, etc...).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><br>
<br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Coles Jennings</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> PE, BEMP, LEED AP BD+C
<br>
Sr. Energy Engineer, Building Sciences Manager <span style="color:#BA0C2F">| </span>
Mason & Hanger <br>
A Day & Zimmermann Company <br>
<b>D </b><a href="tel:(804)%20521-7045" target="_blank">804.521.7045</a> <span style="color:#BA0C2F">
| </span><b>O </b><a href="tel:(804)%20285-4171" target="_blank">804.285.4171</a>
<span style="color:#BA0C2F">| </span><b>F </b><a href="tel:(804)%20217-8520" target="_blank">804.217.8520</a>
<br>
4880 Sadler Road, Suite 300 <span style="color:#BA0C2F">| </span>Glen Allen, VA 23060
<br>
<a href="http://www.masonandhanger.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#224BF1;text-decoration:none">Mason & Hanger</span></a>
<br>
</span><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt">We do what we say.®</span></i></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>PKConsulting via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2017 11:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Shaun Martin <<a href="mailto:smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com" target="_blank">smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Air Temp Reset Interpretation Please...?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Yes! Thanks Shaun- even one count of validation makes me feel not so crazy
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">😜</span>, especially from an old colleague. Thank you- thank you. Why is there too much room for interpretation on these things? I accept that the User Manual is helpful in most scenarios- but this
is one instance that just seems backwards. If it is supposed to airflow reset controls, then why is the section written with "Supply Air Temperature Reset"?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="m_5603468327082964812AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="m_5603468327082964812AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I appreciate your validation of my interpretation.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id="m_5603468327082964812AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
Pasha<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Ph:
<a href="tel:(308)%20763-1593" target="_blank">308-763-1593</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Apr 20, 2017, at 8:29 AM, Shaun Martin <<a href="mailto:smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com" target="_blank">smartin@shaunmartinconsulting.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I think the Standard is quite clear about resetting temperature, and says nothing about modulating airflow. The
user manual seems to be wrong.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shaun Martin LEED-AP, BEMP</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Principal</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Shaun Martin Consulting</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">#90 – 425 Carrall Street</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Vancouver, BC V6B 6E3</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">p.
<a href="tel:(604)%20789-1095" target="_blank">604-789-1095</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a name="m_5603468327082964812__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>PKConsulting via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2017 7:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com" target="_blank">Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Supply Air Temp Reset Interpretation Please...?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks for the feedback- so if the justification for the approach is solely based on the user manual explanation- I can accept that. I'll cross reference it for the 2007 user
manual to put it in my notes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I've always used air-flow first as a standard reset for all my design energy models, What is counter-intuitive here is that the title of the Appendix G section specifically states
'reset-temp', so why should we not take the section text literally? I've always humbly assumed that the ASHRAE standard writers know more than me. After all these years of creating Baseline conforming models (or so I thought), this makes me feel lost all
over again. AND is it not possible to apply code standard requirements without the use of the User Manual? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">Thankful- but-frustrated,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Pasha<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Ph:
<a href="tel:(308)%20763-1593" target="_blank">308-763-1593</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Apr 20, 2017, at 6:48 AM, Jones, Christopher <<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com" target="_blank">Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I had always assumed temperature first but reading the PNNL 90.1-2010 Performance Rating Method Reference
Manual, 3.121 (pdf page 151), it states “For systems 5 through 8, the air temperature for cooling shall be reset higher by 5°F under the minimum cooling load conditions using a reset by warmest zone, airflow first strategy.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The manual states that the airflow first strategy minimizes zone reheat coil energy ( or overcooling)
and central chiller energy consumption at the cost of possible increased fan energy.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Unfortunately, the reviewer may have a case.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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P.Eng.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Technical Specialist</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">2300 Yonge Street, Suite 2300</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Toronto, ON M4P 1E4 Canada</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">T
<a href="tel:(416)%20644-0252" target="_blank">+1 416-644-0252</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6EA900">Please consider the environment before printing...</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pasha Korber-Gonzalez via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 20, 2017 3:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> eQUEST Users List <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Supply Air Temp Reset Interpretation Please...?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Hello--- I received this note from a fellow energy model reviewer (non-LEED review comment) regarding my Baseline energy model that is supposed to be compliant with Appendix G.
I disagree with what they are saying. I appreciate your feedback please and verification if in fact I am wrong in how I am interpreting Section G3.1.3.12.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">"We believe TEMP-FIRST supply air reset control strategy is not the correct interpretation of G3.1.3.12 – rather, AIRFLOW-FIRST should be used."<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Pasha<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Equest-users mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
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