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--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Few more thoughts on this:</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I agree with Joe and David that R-19 “…has already captured most of the energy losses (or savings) for the wall”. R-19 is better than 90.1 2016 requirements for steel-framed wall in climate zone 4A, and since 90.1 requirements are set taking into account cost effectiveness, it is not surprising that further improvement does not often pay off.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Overwhelming majority of high performance multifamily projects have efficient heating systems, often condensing boilers or VRF HPs, which lowers heating costs and potential savings from envelope improvements.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Most multifamily projects in North East have gas heating, and gas is cheap compared to electricity. For example EPA EStar MFHR projects in NY typically use $0.15/kWh and $1/Therm in performance rating calculations, which effectively makes BTU of electricity ~4.4 times more expensive than BTU of gas. This further shrinks contribution of heating toward the total building energy $, and reduces potential savings from envelope improvements. (Using source energy instead of $ in performance rating calculations makes envelope improvements more appealing, because with EPA PM site-to-source conversions BTU of electricity has only ~ 3 times greater weight than BTU of gas.) </span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4)<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I am curious about the reasoning behind Nathan’s comment that “… many of us in the Seattle market are starting to believe the standard plug/misc load assumptions from the Energy Star MF High Rise Sim Guidelines overestimate that energy use”.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">EPA’s plug loads are 4 times lower than COMNET’s for Multifamily/Residential, and are also lower than the loads in PNNL High Rise Apartment prototype. Passive house protocols are the only two sources that I know off that prescribe lower in-unit loads - Passivehaus Institute (PHI) loads are less than half of EPA’s, and US passive house off-shoot (PHIUS) loads are 15% lower than EPA’s. In general, in-unit electricity consumption can vary significantly depending on occupant demographics (by factor of 10 based on some papers), so both COMNET and PHI may be correct for <u>some</u> apartments. We compared EPA assumptions to the in-unit electricity usage in several apartment complexes in NJ, and the numbers were in the right ballpark, so appear to represent reasonable averages. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Campbell via Equest-users<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 09, 2017 9:55 PM<br><b>To:</b> Joe Huang <<a href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Wall insulation in multifamily buildings</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Wow, thank you everyone for the extremely helpful responses. </p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">To answer a few of the questions... the project is in NJ, Climate Zone 4A.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I did account for the thermal bridging of the walls studs. This project has some metals studs and some wood studs and I accounted for both using Appendix A of ASHRAE 90.1-2013.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Nathan, thanks for the input specifically regarding the Energy Star Multifamily High Rise inputs values. This particular project is participating in the ESMFHR Program so I am using their guidelines for equipment/plug loads.</p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Joe Huang via Equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><p>I'd say the message is that R-19 wall insulation has already "captured" most of the energy losses (or savings) for the wall. </p><p>(leaning heavily on my cane...) Back in 1986, I did a project in support of ASHRAE and DOE residential energy standards where I did what then seemed an endless number of DOE-2 simulations (~ 20,000) for five prototypical residences in 45 US climates, from which using regression analyses I came up with the component loads (KBtu/ft2) for various components of the building (walls, roofs, internal loads, windows, etc.). Just picking out the wall component loads for an apartment in Seattle, Miami, and DC, I get the following:</p><p class="MsoNormal"> Seattle Miami Washington DC<br> HL CL HL CL HL CL<br>R-0 28.8 0.8 1.1 4.7 23.1 1.5 <br>R-11 10.9 0.4 0.3 1.5 8.9 0.8<br>R-19 7.1 0.3 0.2 0.9 5.9 0.5<br>R-34 3.9 0.2 0.1 0.5 3.2 0.3<br><br>So, by R-19, you're already on the flat part of the curve and more insulation buys you very little. <br><br>Incidentally, this data base of component loads was then turned into a PC program called PEAR (Program for Energy Analysis of Residences) that then multiplied the regression curves by the component scalar (ft2 of wall, e.g.), and added them up to derive the heating and cooling energy use of a house.<br>PEAR is now so out-of-date technologically that the display no longer functions, but I still think there's some good basic information contained in the data base. David - maybe something that could be updated and maintained by IBPSA? Or better yet, put it on the Web ?<br><br>source: "Technical documentation for a Residential Energy Use Data Base Developed in Support of ASHRAE Special Project 53", Huang, Ritschard, and Bull,<br>LBL-24306, November 1987.<br><br></p><pre>Joe Huang</pre><pre>White Box Technologies, Inc.</pre><pre>346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A</pre><pre>Moraga CA 94556</pre><pre><a href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com" target="_blank">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a></pre><pre><a href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com" target="_blank">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data</pre><pre>(o) <a href="tel:(925)%20388-0265" target="_blank">(925)388-0265</a></pre><pre>(c) <a href="tel:(510)%20928-2683" target="_blank">(510)928-2683</a></pre><pre>"building energy simulations at your fingertips"</pre><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 3/9/2017 2:07 PM, David Eldridge via Equest-users wrote:</p></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">R-19 is not the worst starting point, I’d expect diminishing returns going from good insulation to great insulation, but a much bigger jump in efficiency from poor to good insulation levels. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Make sure you are modeling the cavity insulation accurately including any equivalent assembly resistance due to the studs. i.e. continuous insulation requirements are there because the cavity insulation is de-rated quite a bit from the studs and which can be important in colder climates.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In terms of an overall percentage difference due to envelope changes you may also see that window performance dominates if the WWR is relatively high.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">David</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">David S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">Grumman/Butkus Associates</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan Miller via Equest-users<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 09, 2017 2:52 PM<br><b>To:</b> Michael Campbell <a href="mailto:mcamp1206@gmail.com" target="_blank"><mcamp1206@gmail.com></a><br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Wall insulation in multifamily buildings</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Don’t know where your building is located, but on the Seattle area multifamily projects we routinely model, envelope has very little impact on building energy use. DHW and ventilation seem to be the items we have the most influence over that really can change the energy consumption. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">FWIW, many of us in the Seattle market are starting to believe the standard plug/misc load assumptions from the Energy Star MF High Rise Sim Guidelines (if you are using them) overestimate that energy use, and result in more “free heat” in the building and thus less sensitivity to envelope changes (among other implications). </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:1.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#632423"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:4.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6f1200">Nathan Miller, PE, LEED AP BD+C</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#632423"> – </span></b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Mechanical Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst</span></i></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:3.0pt;line-height:115%"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6f1200">RUSHING</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#bfab7f"> </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">|</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#bfab7f"> </span><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6f1200">O</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#a50021"> </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="tel:(206)%20285-7100" target="_blank">206-285-7100</a> |</span><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6f1200">C</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#a50021"> </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="tel:(207)%20650-3942" target="_blank">207-650-3942</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6f1200"><a href="http://www.rushingco.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6f1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Campbell via Equest-users<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 09, 2017 3:44 PM<br><b>To:</b> equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Wall insulation in multifamily buildings</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hello eQUEST Users,</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I've been working on a model for a multifamily building, 5 stories, approximately 300,000 square feet. I've been running a few iterations of the model to see how changes to the wall assembly affect the model results. <br><br>What I've found is that changes in the wall assembly seem to have a minimal impact on the model results. I just did a comparison where I took an assembly with R-19 cavity insulation and 2" rigid insulation and compared that to the same assembly but without the rigid insulation. This was applied to the entire building. What I found was only a 0.4% increase in total energy cost after taking out the rigid insulation. I'm wondering if others have found similar results in multifamily buildings?</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Any input is appreciated.</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thank you,</p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Mike Campbell</p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p></div></div><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>Equest-users mailing list</pre><pre><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a></pre><pre>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG" target="_blank">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Equest-users mailing list<br><a href="http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org" target="_blank">http://lists.onebuilding.org/listinfo.cgi/equest-users-onebuilding.org</a><br>To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a blank message to <a href="mailto:EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG">EQUEST-USERS-UNSUBSCRIBE@ONEBUILDING.ORG</a></p></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></body></html>