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<p>I'd say the message is that R-19 wall insulation has already
"captured" most of the energy losses (or savings) for the wall. <br>
</p>
<p>(leaning heavily on my cane...) Back in 1986, I did a project in
support of ASHRAE and DOE residential energy standards where I did
what then seemed an endless number of DOE-2 simulations (~ 20,000)
for five prototypical residences in 45 US climates, from which
using regression analyses I came up with the component loads
(KBtu/ft2) for various components of the building (walls, roofs,
internal loads, windows, etc.). Just picking out the wall
component loads for an apartment in Seattle, Miami, and DC, I get
the following:<br>
</p>
Seattle Miami Washington DC<br>
HL CL HL CL HL CL<br>
R-0 28.8 0.8 1.1 4.7 23.1 1.5 <br>
R-11 10.9 0.4 0.3 1.5 8.9 0.8<br>
R-19 7.1 0.3 0.2 0.9 5.9 0.5<br>
R-34 3.9 0.2 0.1 0.5 3.2 0.3<br>
<br>
So, by R-19, you're already on the flat part of the curve and more
insulation buys you very little. <br>
<br>
Incidentally, this data base of component loads was then turned into
a PC program called PEAR (Program for Energy Analysis of Residences)
that then multiplied the regression curves by the component scalar
(ft2 of wall, e.g.), and added them up to derive the heating and
cooling energy use of a house.<br>
PEAR is now so out-of-date technologically that the display no
longer functions, but I still think there's some good basic
information contained in the data base. David - maybe something
that could be updated and maintained by IBPSA? Or better yet, put
it on the Web ?<br>
<br>
source: "Technical documentation for a Residential Energy Use Data
Base Developed in Support of ASHRAE Special Project 53", Huang,
Ritschard, and Bull,<br>
LBL-24306, November 1987.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="90">Joe Huang
White Box Technologies, Inc.
346 Rheem Blvd., Suite 205A
Moraga CA 94556
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com">yjhuang@whiteboxtechnologies.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com">http://weather.whiteboxtechnologies.com</a> for simulation-ready weather data
(o) (925)388-0265
(c) (510)928-2683
"building energy simulations at your fingertips"
</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/9/2017 2:07 PM, David Eldridge via
Equest-users wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">R-19
is not the worst starting point, I’d expect diminishing
returns going from good insulation to great insulation, but
a much bigger jump in efficiency from poor to good
insulation levels. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Make
sure you are modeling the cavity insulation accurately
including any equivalent assembly resistance due to the
studs. i.e. continuous insulation requirements are there
because the cavity insulation is de-rated quite a bit from
the studs and which can be important in colder climates.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In
terms of an overall percentage difference due to envelope
changes you may also see that window performance dominates
if the WWR is relatively high.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
</span></u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">David
S. Eldridge, Jr., P.E., LEED AP BD+C, BEMP, BEAP, HBDP</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#244061">Grumman/Butkus
Associates</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">
</span></u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Equest-users
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nathan Miller via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 09, 2017 2:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Michael Campbell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mcamp1206@gmail.com"><mcamp1206@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Wall insulation in
multifamily buildings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Don’t
know where your building is located, but on the Seattle area
multifamily projects we routinely model, envelope has very
little impact on building energy use. DHW and ventilation
seem to be the items we have the most influence over that
really can change the energy consumption.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">FWIW,
many of us in the Seattle market are starting to believe the
standard plug/misc load assumptions from the Energy Star MF
High Rise Sim Guidelines (if you are using them)
overestimate that energy use, and result in more “free heat”
in the building and thus less sensitivity to envelope
changes (among other implications).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:1.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#632423"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:4.0pt;margin-left:0in"><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6F1200">Nathan
Miller, PE, LEED AP BD+C</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#632423">
–
</span></b><i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">Mechanical
Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst</span></i><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#632423"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:3.0pt;line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6F1200">RUSHING</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#BFAB7F">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">|</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#BFAB7F">
</span><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6F1200">O</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#A50021">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">206-285-7100
|</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#BFAB7F"></span><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6F1200">C</span></b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#A50021">
</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">207-650-3942</span><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#BFAB7F"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6F1200"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><span
style="color:#6F1200">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><b><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#6F1200"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Equest-users [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Campbell via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 09, 2017 3:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Wall insulation in
multifamily buildings<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hello
eQUEST Users,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I've
been working on a model for a multifamily building, 5
stories, approximately 300,000 square feet. I've been
running a few iterations of the model to see how
changes to the wall assembly affect the model
results. <br>
<br>
What I've found is that changes in the wall assembly
seem to have a minimal impact on the model results. I
just did a comparison where I took an assembly with
R-19 cavity insulation and 2" rigid insulation and
compared that to the same assembly but without the
rigid insulation. This was applied to the entire
building. What I found was only a 0.4% increase in
total energy cost after taking out the rigid
insulation. I'm wondering if others have found
similar results in multifamily buildings?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Any
input is appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mike Campbell<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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