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<p class="MsoNormal">Interesting ideas here Bill.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding “Walls between zones with pressurization relationships (such as between corridors and lab zones):”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ve been juggling a lot of lab projects lately. Seems to me in that specific scenario, if I were interested in more-accurately capturing horizontal thermal interactions between spaces with designed pressurization differences, rather than
air walls I might explore enforcing “one way” heat transfer. I loosely recall some years ago someone smarter than myself (Bruce I think) schooled me over the lists concerning plenum/space heat interactions, and I learned there’s some 1-way behavior with return
air path plenums…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Regional Energy Engineering Manager<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6361
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
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United States</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 07, 2017 10:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris Baker <CBaker@cci-alliance.com>; equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Air wall heat transfer - custom values?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Chris, thanks for the feedback. Anybody else?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’m looking for ideas or data to come up with a range of conductance values (U-values) for air wall constructions. I would expect higher U-values (more heat transfer) for any of the following conditions:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">Horizontal air walls due to thermal stratification<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">Walls between zones with pressurization relationships (such as between corridors and lab zones)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">Between zones that transfer air (such as for restrooms or kitchens)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">Between zones where one or both are served by forced air systems; higher values for greater air changes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">Between zones modeled with the same thermostat schedule but which would be expected to consistently have a temperature difference between them (as described by Chris below)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I would think this has been researched and that potential data sources could be from studying UFAD systems, ceiling fans, radiant heating and cooling systems and other low-energy-intensity HVAC designs. Determining
an upper limit value (greatest heat transfer) would be a good start.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">You could then include three or more air wall construction types in a model to help simulate the conditions above and reduce unmet heating and cooling hours, resulting in lower-energy designs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">~Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Chris Baker [<a href="mailto:CBaker@cci-alliance.com">mailto:CBaker@cci-alliance.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 03, 2017 6:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Bishop, Bill <<a href="mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Air wall heat transfer - custom values?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Bill, I smell what you’re stepping in.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">This is interesting because I recall Nick’s team submission for the equest energy modeling competition in which all the ventilation was natural /displacement with the delta-T’s affecting the airflow in some interesting
ways.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Determining a “thermal conductivity” multiplier that you could factor into DOE2’s equation for determining the Delta T would seem like a good way forward but this is getting into uncharted territory for me, personally,
and more going under-the-hood into limits of DOE2.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">But that thermal conductivity variable is further back (or down) in the calculation so you would have to use 2.7 as a known value and work backwards from there (running the Delta-T calcs backwards in an engineering
sense) then recalculate the Delta T forwards again with your new value for thermal conductivity factored in with the intended value.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Because, in essence, that would be the goal - A more accurate model - Which would require a more accurate delta-T for an air-wall system as it applies to a given scenario/schema.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">And the adjacent zone(s) will always be a part of how it plays out in the final simulation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Nick and I skyped about the nature of the air-wall systems a couple years ago but it was more of just a basic brainstorming session and I remember getting a headache at some point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Chris Baker<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">CCI Alliance of Companies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Fort Wainwright, AK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 03, 2017 10:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> equest-users <<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Air wall heat transfer - custom values?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One of the interior wall types in DOE-2 is “AIR”, for which there is a default library member “<b>Default Air Wall Construction</b>” with heat transfer of
<b>U = 2.7 Btu/h-ft<sup>2</sup>-°F</b>. The help menu describes this as the recommended value but gives no reference for it. How might we come up with a range of values?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I frequently model air walls for everything from open doors to transfer grills to stairwells etc. It is also critical to my method of modeling DOAS systems where I assign the DOAS to plenum spaces and the zonal systems to the spaces below.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are many situations where I suspect the default 2.7 value is too small, such as the DOAS system method I described, or any time you have forced air systems on either or both sides of the air wall. Other examples could be displacement
ventilation systems, or high bay systems with fans to avoid stratification.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The relevance of changing the number is that higher values simulate higher rates of mixing of air, and can impact the unmet hours substantially if the zone temperatures separated by the air wall have a high delta-T between them.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What say you, simulationists?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Bill<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:black">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:#006600">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:black"> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Senior Energy Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rochester, NY 14608<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060">T: (585) 698-1956</span><span style="color:#002060">
</span></i></b><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">F: (585) 325-6005</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><a href="mailto:wbishop@pathfinder-ea.com"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:blue">bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com</span></a><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">
</span><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:blue">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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