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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the replies Bill/Nick/Neil and Cole.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bill – I am modelling it for a PACE energy project to completely replace all HVAC systems and controls in the building so the existing system energy is important.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nick – No. The chiller was only sized to handle the excessive load produced by added ventilation air. I guess they technically don’t have to be connected to the same load if I can create the chiller load to just handle outside air.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I used Neil’s approach with the dummy zone. It seems to be working so far. I still have some tinkering to do with scheduling, but it’s coming together.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you all. You guys do wonders on here. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Bishop, Bill [mailto:bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 10:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton <Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com>; Neil Bulger <nbulger@integralgroup.com>; Tom Mickley <tmickley@thekcompany.com>; equest-users@onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packaged RTU w/ Precool Chiller<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tom,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Stepping even further back – what is the purpose of your energy modeling? This is an existing facility with an existing system. Will you be modifying or replacing this system? Are you creating a calibrated energy
model for some other purpose? Is the model primarily for design purposes?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">For example, if you are proposing to replace the unit with something new, the configuration of the existing system isn’t as important as understanding the loads. The energy of the existing system is important
if you are evaluating it as an ECM.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">~Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:black">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:#006600">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium",sans-serif;color:black"> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:105%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Senior Energy Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Rochester, NY 14608<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</span><a href="http://www.pathfinder-ea.com/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:105%;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">www.pathfinder-ea.com</span></a><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Caton via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 10:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Neil Bulger <<a href="mailto:nbulger@integralgroup.com">nbulger@integralgroup.com</a>>; Tom Mickley <<a href="mailto:tmickley@thekcompany.com">tmickley@thekcompany.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Packaged RTU w/ Precool Chiller<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Definitely a head-scratcher!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Taking a step back to pose some leading thoughts/questions:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]>Does the packaged chiller have the capacity to accomplish all the cooling necessary to bring the OA stream down to the supply air temps, or can it only accomplish part of the job?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]>Is it really necessary for the OA pre-cooling chiller “system” and the existing AHU “system” handling all other loads to be “connected” for a reasonable estimation of energy usage?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I too would be more keen on trying the OA-FROM-SYSTEM approach if they ultimately must be “connected” in the simulation. You might also lump evaporative pre-cooling in the category of features that kinda approach the problem, but likely
fall short for reflecting the actual sitation in some fundamental ways. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think Neil is correct to assert the thermostat temperature of the “dummy zone” is what gets seen at the receiving system for the incoming OA airstream, so you might want to separately evaluate the temperature profile/schedule coming off
the packaged chiller OA system, and feed that into your simulation as an hourly temperature schedule for the dummy zone (EMIT can help automate 8760 schedule generation, btw).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="722" height="9" style="width:7.5208in;height:.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image008.png@01D25CED.56325770" alt="cid:image008.png@01D25CED.56325770"></span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Schneider Electric</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6361
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">M </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785.410.3317
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">E </span><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com</span></a><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">F </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6380</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
Lenexa, KS 66219<br>
United States</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:4.0pt"><span style="color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="722" height="49" style="width:7.5208in;height:.5104in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image009.png@01D25CED.56325770" alt="cid:image001.png@01D189AB.58634A10"></span><span style="color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Neil Bulger via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 8:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tom Mickley <<a href="mailto:tmickley@thekcompany.com">tmickley@thekcompany.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Packaged RTU w/ Precool Chiller<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tom,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There are two ways you could go about this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">You can use a combination of AHU systems, with one pulling outside air from the other. You would create a new System, serving a dummy zone (any zone, you can make a space without walls and just a floor).
This will be your CHW system and you can hard-size the unit to move an explicit amount of fresh air, essentially capturing this energy-cost to dehumidify ventilation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D">The other system your DX AHU, will pull outside air from the first system. In eQuest, any system that pulls air from another needs to be created after the outside air system is created. So in the navigational
tree, the outside CHW AHU needs to be the first on the list essentially.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D">When you specify the DX AHU to “outside air from ___ system” I believe it supplys the second AHU with the equivalent of room air from the dummy zone. So if your thermostat was 75, your AHU DX system would
be seeing 75. In reality, the CHW dehumidification process likely is providing colder air at a benefit to a cooling process, yet this detail likely cannot be captured in eQuest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D">The DX AHU will need to same ventilation fraction or fixed amount and this will be the portion of air taken from the primary system. This is not a perfect solution so I anticipate you will hit some bumps
along the way. The outside air from feature does some strange things. Sometimes you may need to size coils for instance, which actually you may know their size.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">There is a water-side economizing coil that can be put in upstream of a primary cooling object (in this case, your DX is your primary cooling object). The coil can only be directly attached to a cooling
tower loop. This might be problematic since it would not capture as much thermal load if the eQuest condenser water was not cold enough year round. This would just be a way to capture some cooling that is occurring prior to the DX coil. Any BTU this coil provides
would need to be added up and some post processing of a COP applied. The more I think about this, the less I like it actually. But, it is a feature in eQuest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F">Neil Bulger
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F">Building Performance Team<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom Mickley via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 6:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Packaged RTU w/ Precool Chiller<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Good morning,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m molding an existing outpatient facility and I’ve ran into an issue.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One of the HVAC units is a packaged DX unit supplying a few surgical rooms. The HVAC was designed around a class A or less operating room way back at the time of the original install. They’ve since changed to class C operating rooms which
have more strict airflow requirements. The building owners decided to modify the existing system rather than replace with new.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That being said, the unit is still a DX cooled unit with in-duct steam humidification and HW reheat at the zone level. There is electric backup heat in the unit if the boilers fail.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here’s the issue….<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The surgeons requested the rooms maintain 60 degrees all year round. The existing unit couldn’t maintain temperature. Therefore, there has been an air cooled packaged chiller added with a chilled water coil attached to the outdoor air
intake to cool and dehumidify the outdoor air before entering the unit. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I cannot find a way to model DX and chilled water at the same time. Does anyone have any suggestions?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br>
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