<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
p.msonormal0, li.msonormal0, div.msonormal0
{mso-style-name:msonormal;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle21
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:820078126;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-1224196328 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l1
{mso-list-id:1227229959;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-1259726576 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;}
@list l1:level1
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level2
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level3
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l1:level4
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level5
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level6
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
@list l1:level7
{mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level8
{mso-level-number-format:alpha-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1:level9
{mso-level-number-format:roman-lower;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:right;
text-indent:-9.0pt;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Definitely a head-scratcher!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Taking a step back to pose some leading thoughts/questions:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]>Does the packaged chiller have the capacity to accomplish all the cooling necessary to bring the OA stream down to the supply air temps, or can it only accomplish part of the job?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><![endif]>Is it really necessary for the OA pre-cooling chiller “system” and the existing AHU “system” handling all other loads to be “connected” for a reasonable estimation of energy usage?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I too would be more keen on trying the OA-FROM-SYSTEM approach if they ultimately must be “connected” in the simulation. You might also lump evaporative pre-cooling in the category of features that kinda approach the problem, but likely
fall short for reflecting the actual sitation in some fundamental ways. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think Neil is correct to assert the thermostat temperature of the “dummy zone” is what gets seen at the receiving system for the incoming OA airstream, so you might want to separately evaluate the temperature profile/schedule coming off
the packaged chiller OA system, and feed that into your simulation as an hourly temperature schedule for the dummy zone (EMIT can help automate 8760 schedule generation, btw).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46"><img width="722" height="9" style="width:7.5208in;height:.0937in" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.png@01D25C31.6A1E76E0"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#3A7A46">Nick Caton, P.E., BEMP</span></b><span style="color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="724" style="width:543.0pt;border-collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="230" valign="top" style="width:172.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469"> Schneider Electric</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width="291" valign="top" style="width:218.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">D </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6361
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">M </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">785.410.3317
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">E </span><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#57B069">F </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">913.564.6380</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td width="203" valign="top" style="width:152.4pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="text-align:right"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#626469">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br>
Suite 204<br>
Lenexa, KS 66219<br>
United States</span><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:4.0pt">
<td width="724" colspan="3" valign="top" style="width:543.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;height:4.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:4.0pt"><span style="color:#3A7A46"><img border="0" width="722" height="49" style="width:7.5208in;height:.5104in" id="Picture_x0020_3" src="cid:image002.png@01D25C31.6A1E76E0" alt="cid:image001.png@01D189AB.58634A10"></span><span style="color:#3A7A46"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Neil Bulger via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 8:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tom Mickley <tmickley@thekcompany.com>; equest-users@onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Packaged RTU w/ Precool Chiller<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tom,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There are two ways you could go about this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">You can use a combination of AHU systems, with one pulling outside air from the other. You would create a new System, serving a dummy zone (any zone, you can make a space without walls and just a floor).
This will be your CHW system and you can hard-size the unit to move an explicit amount of fresh air, essentially capturing this energy-cost to dehumidify ventilation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D">The other system your DX AHU, will pull outside air from the first system. In eQuest, any system that pulls air from another needs to be created after the outside air system is created. So in the navigational
tree, the outside CHW AHU needs to be the first on the list essentially.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D">When you specify the DX AHU to “outside air from ___ system” I believe it supplys the second AHU with the equivalent of room air from the dummy zone. So if your thermostat was 75, your AHU DX system would
be seeing 75. In reality, the CHW dehumidification process likely is providing colder air at a benefit to a cooling process, yet this detail likely cannot be captured in eQuest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D">The DX AHU will need to same ventilation fraction or fixed amount and this will be the portion of air taken from the primary system. This is not a perfect solution so I anticipate you will hit some bumps
along the way. The outside air from feature does some strange things. Sometimes you may need to size coils for instance, which actually you may know their size.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="color:#1F497D"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="color:#1F497D">There is a water-side economizing coil that can be put in upstream of a primary cooling object (in this case, your DX is your primary cooling object). The coil can only be directly attached to a cooling
tower loop. This might be problematic since it would not capture as much thermal load if the eQuest condenser water was not cold enough year round. This would just be a way to capture some cooling that is occurring prior to the DX coil. Any BTU this coil provides
would need to be added up and some post processing of a COP applied. The more I think about this, the less I like it actually. But, it is a feature in eQuest.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F">Neil Bulger
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F">|</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F"> PE | Principal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F">Building Performance Team<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:4.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F">Integral Group</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7F7F7F"> | T 510.663.2070 x 2035 | D 510.457.0135 | M 707.363.3954<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray"><a href="http://www.integralgroup.com/"><span style="color:gray">integralgroup.com</span></a> |
<a href="mailto:nbulger@integralgroup.com"><span style="color:gray">nbulger@integralgroup.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:4.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#333333">This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately
and destroy this email. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the information contained on this email is prohibited.</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tom Mickley via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 22, 2016 6:23 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@onebuilding.org">equest-users@onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Packaged RTU w/ Precool Chiller<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Good morning,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m molding an existing outpatient facility and I’ve ran into an issue.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One of the HVAC units is a packaged DX unit supplying a few surgical rooms. The HVAC was designed around a class A or less operating room way back at the time of the original install. They’ve since changed to class C operating rooms which
have more strict airflow requirements. The building owners decided to modify the existing system rather than replace with new.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That being said, the unit is still a DX cooled unit with in-duct steam humidification and HW reheat at the zone level. There is electric backup heat in the unit if the boilers fail.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here’s the issue….<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The surgeons requested the rooms maintain 60 degrees all year round. The existing unit couldn’t maintain temperature. Therefore, there has been an air cooled packaged chiller added with a chilled water coil attached to the outdoor air
intake to cool and dehumidify the outdoor air before entering the unit. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I cannot find a way to model DX and chilled water at the same time. Does anyone have any suggestions?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks in advance!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br>
______________________________________________________________________<br>
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.<br>
______________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>