<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_9455">Thanks, Nick. I have an even more interesting scenario. This building was built originally in 1855 (yes, even before me and 19 years after the Battle of the Alamo)). The owners will leave the concrete 1855 side walls (I think I will let them be totally shaded outside walls), gut the rest of the building, and rebuild a 5 story single residence (no, not one of the Trump kids).</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_9576">SO..for the City of New York 2011 Energy Code (2014 doesn't take place until October, 2016), we use ASHRAE 90.1-2010. Good old Appendix G (as I interpret it) say that, for either New or Alterations, the Base model is Steel Frame. <b>ALL of it.</b> So I don't apply the 1855 walls (with some added insulation) until the Proposed Run (Thank GOD I don't have to spin the building like LEED).</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_9835">Does this base building approach seem correct to you?</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_10049">Don't forget. I am originally a Chicago boy.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472772110889_7582" dir="ltr"><span>John</span></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> On Thursday, September 1, 2016 3:19 PM, "Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com" <Nicholas.Caton@schneider-electric.com> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv9866582090"><style>#yiv9866582090 #yiv9866582090 --
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#yiv9866582090 </style><div><div class="yiv9866582090WordSection1"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">John, looks like this didn’t leave my outbox… sorry! Give me time to refine my response:</span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">How I’d react would depend on my motives/goals.</span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Ideally, I’d like to find & assert both neighbors are conditioned to similar temperatures and therefore declare no substantive heat transfer: adiabatic surfaces with thermal mass to effect hourly heat storage/transfer lag. This is probably accurate enough (in-aggregate) for many cases, short of exposed walls where one building is taller than another.</span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Conservatively – Nathan’s suggestion is the ticket however. If there’s going to be appreciable heat transfer, you’re now in a position to decide where to draw a line in the sand: what’s your worst-case? This may be the more appropriate response if you’re doing simulation to aid/inform equipment sizing or if you know of planned demolition/renovations in the neighboring spaces. I can say short of FEMA shelters and the like (this is tornado country…), I don’t normally make the destruction of an attached portion of my buildings a part of my design calculations or energy simulations, but you might have some good reasons to pull that possibility into the picture.</span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Applying the likes of 90.1 conditioned envelope definitions notably gets a little trickier if you have an enclosed or partially enclosed gap between the buildings. If you’re heading down a 90.1/LEED based simulation path or something similar for compliance, look hard for shared wall/space construction details on that front to understand what exactly lies beyond your “envelope.”</span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Finally, I notice you mentioned an disquieting location: New York City (or NEW YORK CITY?!? as we say in the midwest). I want to say there was a mailing list discussion on this exact issue in relation to NY’s energy standards some time back either in equest-users or bldg-sim… but on cursory searching I’m having trouble finding it… suggest digging the archives further!</span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">~Nick</span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><img id="yiv9866582090Picture_x0020_1" width="722" height="9" src="cid:image001.png@01D2046F.62C6C380"></span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Nick Caton, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div></div><table class="yiv9866582090MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="724" style="width:543.0pt;border-collapse:collapse;"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" valign="top" width="230" style="width:172.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;"> Senior Energy Engineer</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;"><br clear="none"></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;"> Energy and Sustainability Services</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;"><br clear="none"></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;"> Schneider Electric</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" valign="top" width="291" style="width:218.3pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">D </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">913.564.6361 </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;"><br clear="none"></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">M </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">785.410.3317 </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;"><br clear="none"></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">E </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">nicholas.caton@schneider-electric.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;"><br clear="none"></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">F </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">913.564.6380</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" valign="top" width="203" style="width:152.4pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;"><div align="right" class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="text-align:right;"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">15200 Santa Fe Trail Drive<br clear="none">Suite 204<br clear="none">Lenexa, KS 66219<br clear="none">United States</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div></td></tr><tr style="min-height:4.0pt;"><td colspan="3" rowspan="1" valign="top" width="724" style="width:543.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;min-height:4.0pt;"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><img id="yiv9866582090Picture_x0020_3" border="0" width="722" height="49" src="cid:image002.png@01D2046F.62C6C380" alt="cid:image001.png@01D189AB.58634A10"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div><div class="yiv9866582090yqt6966571117" id="yiv9866582090yqt11137"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Aulbach via Equest-users<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 01, 2016 4:09 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Nathan Miller<br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Outside wall to outside wall</span></div></div></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"> </div><div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Thank you all. I just had to shake the trees to jog my DOE-2.1 memory.</span></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472764018125_3740"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472764018125_3740"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">A fully shaded outdoor wall is probably the best way, so thank you all.</span></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472764018125_3740"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472764018125_3740"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">John</span></div></div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div><div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">On Thursday, September 1, 2016 1:17 PM, Nathan Miller <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:nathanm@rushingco.com">nathanm@rushingco.com</a>> wrote:</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div><div><div id="yiv9866582090"><div><div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Tough call, but I’d probably be conservative and err on the side of making assumptions that result in MORE energy consumption in my modeling (unless there is some benchmarking you can compare to). </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">That means I’d probably assume the walls are exterior and fully shaded. There is a pretty good chance there is at least small dead-air-space between the buildings (even if it is only a few inches), plus you have no control over what is happening on the other side of the wall… maybe the neighboring building is minimally conditioned, or becomes abandoned. </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:1.0pt;"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> </span></b><span style=""></span></div></div><div style="margin-bottom:4.0pt;"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;">Nathan Miller, PE, LEED AP BD+C – </span></b><i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;">Mechanical Engineer/Senior Energy Analyst</span></i><span style=""></span></div></div><div style="margin-top:3.0pt;"><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%;background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;">RUSHING</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;"> | <b>D</b> 206-788-4577 | <b>O</b> 206-285-7100 | <b>C</b> 207-650-3942</span><span style=""></span></div></div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%;background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;line-height:115%;"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.rushingco.com/"><span style="color:#6F1200;">www.rushingco.com</span></a></span></b><span style=""></span></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span><span style=""></span></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yqt09432"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> Equest-users [<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Aulbach via Equest-users<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 31, 2016 5:42 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> via Equest-users <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>><br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Outside wall to outside wall</span><span style=""></span></div></div></div></div><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div><div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Hi Gang:</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Food (and query) for thought.</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">I am doing a remodel of a New York Building that is essentially a tenement (?). Building squished between other buildings. Side walls essentially lay against next building.</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Inside wall? Outside wall with no solar?</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">How would you model this?</span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div><div id="yiv9866582090yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1472679516589_4504"><div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">John R. Aulbach, PE</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="yiv9866582090MsoNormal"><br clear="none">______________________________________________________________________<br clear="none">This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.<br clear="none">______________________________________________________________________</div></div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>