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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I’ve been reading more on this. Thanks all so far for your input.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Chris – you are right.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">It appears that PolyIso foam board is the exception. XPS insulation and EPS perform better at lower temps because of more conduction, less convection and less radiation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">However, Polyiso is unique in that it off-gases and these gases can condense at cold temperatures which can cause a lower performing R-value at colder temperatures (which is counter to how XPS and EPS perform
under the same conditions).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
That would mean the main problem up here in Alaska is that we don’t have a lot of information that represents accurate “performing” R-values for Polyiso because the mean/average testing temperature is 75 Deg F, as determined by the Federal Trade Commission.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The equation is as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Temp at Hot side of foam + Temp at Cold side of foam / 2 = Average Mean testing temp of the material<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">This standard is what has been used in the industry for years and it sets a bar for Manufacturers so that everyone is on the same page. But this isn’t representative of cold climates.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">So what we see on our cut sheets in Alaska kind of has to be taken with a grain of salt and an understanding of these variables. How we model and account for this in equest is another issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The municipality of Anchorage published a document back in 2006 that sais a more realistic mean/average testing temp in Anchorage, Alaska is 40 Deg F.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">In Fairbanks it seems this would be even lower – closer to 30 Deg F or even as low as 25 (but that’s just my opinion) because our temperatures in Interior Alaska are usually around 10-20 degrees colder in Winter
than it is in Anchorage.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">But the Municipality’s publication doesn’t really provide much more info.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The University of Alaska Fairbanks has a Cold Climate Housing Research Center where they conduct testing for cold climates. There are many publications on their website but nothing specifically regarding foam
board. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I may call them just to see if I can get more info. Fortunately, they are local and UAF is where I went to school.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">But I’m not sure how much info they would have – mainly because it appears most of their testing is for assemblies and not individual components of a given system.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">However, if I find any other useful information I’ll be sure to pass it along.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Does anyone know if this R-value variance is referenced in any of the ASHRAE documentation? I don’t recall seeing anything.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">But I guess in most instances/climates it wouldn’t be much of an issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Chris Baker<br>
CCI Alliance of Companies<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Fort Wainwright, AK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Chris Jones [mailto:Christopher.Jones@RWDI.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 31, 2016 5:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Bishop, Bill; Chris Baker<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Questions - Foam Board R-value Variations by Temp<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">To add a twist to the discussion, I found this site that shows that the R-value of some insulation increases as the outside temperature drops – except for Polyiso:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/59419/Big-News-The-R-Value-of-Insulation-Is-Not-a-Constant">http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/59419/Big-News-The-R-Value-of-Insulation-Is-Not-a-Constant</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Christopher Jones, P. Eng.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Rowan Williams Davies & Irwin Inc.</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
<i>Consulting Engineers & Scientists</i><br>
901 King Street West, Suite 400, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 3H5<br>
<b>T:</b> (519) 823-1311 ext 2052 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M:</span></b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> (416) 697-0056
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bishop, Bill via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 31, 2016 9:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris Baker<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Questions - Foam Board R-value Variations by Temp<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Hi Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Some quick thoughts:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="color:#1F497D">1.)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">It sounds like this question of effective R-value as a function of temperature needs to be addressed through more research. Perhaps NRCA could coordinate an effort with ASHRAE (but I wouldn’t know how to pursue this).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="color:#1F497D">2.)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">You will have several inches of continuous insulation in Climate Zone 8 for roofs and above-grade walls, with minimum R-19 up to R-35 c.i. required per ASHRAE 90.1-2013. There will be a temperature gradient through these layers
of insulation, so that only the outer layer would approach the outside air temperature. A math-savvy person with some time on their hands could take the temperature-dependent curve you mention and apply some calculus to estimate the effective U-factor for
the assembly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="color:#1F497D">3.)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">How to model? We often compare designs to an ASHRAE baseline. Standard 90.1 requirements are in terms of effective R-values and U-factors which will be modeled the same way in eQUEST regardless of the effective R-value per
inch. We always have to make judgement calls regarding the effective (and long-term) R-values of insulation relative to the published literature available. So maybe polyiso isn’t R-6/inch. Maybe it’s R-5, R-4 or worse. In any case, we typically have many other
variables that are unknown with equal, or greater impact on our energy numbers, such as infiltration rates. We can always perform sensitivity analyses of these variables to see how important they are to the energy performance of our particular designs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="color:#1F497D">4.)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">For design/loads simulation purposes, you could use the worst estimated U-factor for your constructions for heating sizing, and the non-temperature-degraded value for cooling sizing. For annual energy simulation, better to
estimate the assembly U-factors at a weighted-average outside temperature. I am not aware of a way to directly simulate temperature-dependent R-values in DOE-2/eQUEST.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in"><span style="color:#1F497D">5.)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D">
</span><span style="color:#1F497D">There is also a question of thermal mass. If you have to add more layers of insulation to get a desired assembly U-factor, then you are also adding mass, which impacts the response factors of assemblies. With the relatively
low densities of continuous insulation, the added thermal mass might not have much impact on the time-delayed heat flow through the wall. Again, this is something we can determine through sensitivity analyses of our designs should we wish. If NRCA and/or ASHRAE
conduct new tests of insulation materials, it would be good to get data on specific heat values as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">~Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:black">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:#006600">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Medium","sans-serif";color:black"> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Baker via Equest-users<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Questions - Foam Board R-value Variations by Temp<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One thing one of our suppliers has asked about is how the R-values get treated in equest, specifically, for foam board insulation and it opened up some reflection and in-depth thought on how this might be addressed in equest moving forward.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I decided to post this more to incite discussion (my knowledge on this is limited).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It appears that NRCA has been publishing R-value testing data separate from the actual NRCA roofing manual as they get newer data and more accurate data.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I was emailed a 2016 PDF file called “Insulation Design Predictability in Alaska” containing testing data and R-value variations by temperature for different foam board media. If you email me I can forward it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The result - that has been the trend over the last few years - is that rated R-values have been going down for polyeurethane board and polyiso board.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The example for polyisocyanurate from 2014 was telling. At 75 degF a 2” polyiso board had an average (mean) R-value of 5.55 out of a total of 7 samples.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The sampling for the same 2” polyiso at 25 degF had an average R-value of 4.049 (some say the newer data is 3.9).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One question is how we might be able to address this in equest in the future as we push for more accurate representations of energy usage and energy modeling in equest.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">A published R-value on a cut sheet is not necessarily the performing R-value of the material in an Alaskan winter where we can get -40F or -50F for up to a week before warming up to -10 or -20 (sometimes colder). And Alaska is definitely
not alone in this.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But it doesn’t appear that even NRCA has testing data for any foam board under a temperature of 25 deg F (which is warm for Alaska in winter).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The question some people have in Alaska is how this will be addressed in terms of energy efficiency calculations – which, obviously, isn’t easy to answer.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">There’s a definite bell curve associated with the testing data that shows a steep dropoff of R-value with temperature – particularly temps colder than 25F – for both polyeurethane board and polyiso.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It would appear that the only way to achieve an accurate representation in cold climates would be to conduct independent testing and establish an overall annual average R-value (or at least a calculated number).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But even this would not necessarily be accurate. An equest model with a single (averaged) input R-value would represent slightly elevated cooling needed in summer and heating in winter that would likely be reflected as “too efficient” than
what you would see in reality.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Given the lack of data we ended up going with cutsheet standard values for our previous model in equest but I, obviously, now know that 2” polyeurethane board is not necessarily one R-value or another.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">When we model a wall or roof buildup in equest we are doing so to represent the thermal performance of the unit throughout a model year – with the foam being just one piece of the puzzle.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">What isn’t clear is how we might be able to move forward with more accurate data. Our foam supplier that manufactured all the material for our LEED project was asking me if there was some way to address this moving forward. I can’t say…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To my knowledge, it still remains to be addressed since we don’t have a lot of accurate testing data applying to these materials in places like Climate Zone 8 or 8A here in Alaska.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">So without accurate testing data we really can’t even calculate the R-value accurately other than to continue the bell-curve of the current data into the lower temps. But then you would be seeing a 2” polyiso foam board with R2 when you
get into your below zero temps which is – wow… Something is wrong here.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The manufacturer said this was due to the nature of how the foam changes with temp – specifically, if the cells within the foam can shrink with cold temps.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is even possible that this stressing of the material over extended periods can cause it to pull in moisture and moisture-laden air (slight amounts) which could also play a roll in cold temps. But to what extent this can occur is unknown.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m curious what others have seen or come across or how we might be able to reflect this more accurately in equest.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Chris Baker<br>
CCI Alliance of Companies<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fort Wainwright, AK<o:p></o:p></p>
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