<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4232"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4639">Dear Sambhav/ William Bishop</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4232"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4232"><span>Thank you for the replies.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4231"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4217">I have modelled the baseline case as per the requirements of Appendix G (Pumps, cooling tower power etc is modeled as per ASHRAE 90.1 2007). Just to confirm, 22W/gpm has to be split between base and proposed case based on a ASHRAE interpretation.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4296">With the exact modeling, i am getting result where variable primary pumping system - air cooled screw chillers are performing almost equal or better than baseline centrifugal chiller. These results seem little surprising. So i am unsure whether it is correct. </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4568">It would be really helpful if the experts can confirm the results.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4537">Thank you.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4536">Regards,</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4535">Rathnashree</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1445931527405_4218"><span><br></span></div> <br><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> On Monday, 19 October 2015 7:27 PM, "Bishop, Bill" <bbishop@pathfinder-ea.com> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv4817213512"><style>#yiv4817213512 #yiv4817213512 --
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<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Rathna,</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">There are several inputs in eQUEST that impact your CHW plant pumping energy as modeled for Appendix G:</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">1.)<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">CHW pump power should be 22 W/gpm per G3.1.3.10. I don’t recall how “official” it is but many on this forum interpret this as for the entire primary/secondary
pumping, meaning it should be split between the primary and secondary pumps. (For example, 10 W/gpm for the primary loop pump and 12 W/gpm for the secondary loop pump.) Splitting vs. not splitting is one of the major influences of Baseline pump power.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">2.)<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">CW pump power should be 19 W/gpm per G3.1.3.11.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">3.)<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">CHW coils should use CHW-VALVE-TYPE of TWO-WAY to facilitate variable flow through the secondary loop, regardless of using a variable-speed drive for
the secondary loop pump (for cooling capacity ≥ 300 tons) or “riding the pump curve” with a single-speed pump (cooling capacity < 300 tons).</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">4.)<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">The loop HEAD-SETPT-CTRL and HEAD-SENSOR-LOCN have major influences on pump energy. There is no requirement in Appendix G. that specifies the type of
control. In order of least to best efficiency, the settings are:</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">a.<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">FIXED; AT-PUMP</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">b.<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">FIXED; ENTERING-LOOP</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">c.<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">FIXED; AT-COILS</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:1.0in;">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">d.<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">VALVE-RESET; n/a</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">I think FIXED, AT-COILS is a reasonable setting for both the Baseline and Proposed models, unless the Proposed design has the controls to survey the positions
of all coils and implement the VALVE-RESET strategy, and then I use that in the Proposed.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoListParagraph" style=""><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"><span style="">5.)<span style="font:7.0pt;">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">LOOP-OPERATION impacts all CHW end-uses (cooling, pumping, heat rejection) especially if cooling is not needed year-round. This is also not specified
in Appendix G. STANDBY keeps the CHW plant running when any systems with CHW capability are running. DEMAND-ONLY turns the CHW plant off unless there is a coil or process load for that hour. I think either setting is fair as long as it is kept identical between
the Baseline and Proposed models.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Besides pumping energy, there is an easily-overlooked Baseline requirement per G3.1.3.11 of axial fan cooling towers with two-speed fans. Table 6.8.1G shows the
minimum performance requirement of ≥38.2 gpm/hp. You have to calculate the fan kW from this based on the autosized tower flow and enter it as FAN-KW/FLOW or EIR. The eQUEST default EIR of 0.0105 for open towers is actually more efficient than the Table 6.8.1G
requirement.</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">Regards,</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">~Bill</span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">William Bishop, PE, BEMP, BEAP, CEM, LEED AP
</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">|</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;"> Pathfinder Engineers & Architects LLP</span></b></div>
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<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> </span></div>
<div class="yiv4817213512yqt2393764424" id="yiv4817213512yqt17382"><div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;"> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rathna Shree<br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 19, 2015 1:03 AM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Sambhav Tiwari <tiwari.sambhav@gmail.com><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> Equest Users Mailing List <equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Air cooled chillers versus water cooled chillers</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal"> </div>
<div>
<div id="yiv4817213512yui_3_16_0_1_1445230862479_2758">
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Hi Sambhav,</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4817213512yui_3_16_0_1_1445230862479_2758">
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4817213512yui_3_16_0_1_1445230862479_2758">
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Does that mean, air cooled chillers with variable primary pumping system performance is almost equivalent or better than the ASHRAE 90.1 2007 defined
water cooled centrifugal chiller system?</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4817213512yui_3_16_0_1_1445230862479_2758">
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4817213512yui_3_16_0_1_1445230862479_2758">
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Regards,</span></div>
</div>
<div id="yiv4817213512yui_3_16_0_1_1445230862479_2758">
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Rathnashree</span></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;">On Saturday, 17 October 2015 12:57 PM, Sambhav Tiwari <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:tiwari.sambhav@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:tiwari.sambhav@gmail.com">tiwari.sambhav@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><span style=""></span></div>
</div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
<div>
<div id="yiv4817213512">
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Hi Rathanashree,</span></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">For me the results seems to be alright</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">1 Being a air cooled chiller with less COP than baseline water cooled your compressor energy consumption is increasing which is clear from the results
.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">2 Now there is a debate going these day to replace ( constant primary & variable secondary pumps) with variable primary pump system although many HVAC
experts advocate against it that it can have negative impacts on chiller too.But definitely it will save energy consumption under pumps which is clear from your results your proposed case is left only with VFD based primary pump compared with baseline of
( constant primary+variable secondary+constant condenser water pumps) therefore pumps energy is too less and justified to me.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">3 Your cooling tower energy consumption will be nil in proposed case being a air cooled system that is also fine.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">But the main driver or you can say main ECM in your analysis is variable primary and no secondary chiller which is contributing siginifant savings in
pumps along with no cooling tower present hence your over all energy saving are positive.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Hope this may help.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Warm Regards</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Sambhav</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Rathna Shree <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:rathnashreep@yahoo.in" target="_blank" href="mailto:rathnashreep@yahoo.in">rathnashreep@yahoo.in</a>> wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in;">
<div id="yiv4817213512yqt67326">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Dear All,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">A project has 14 floors and 3.5 lakhs sq.ft. of conditioned area. The project is going for LEED certification. The baseline HVAC system will be Variable
air volume system with water cooled centrifugal chiller of COP 6.1. LPD is maintained at 0.7W/sft. Building envelope is more or less equal to baseline case. In this scenario, the proposed HVAC system is air cooled screw chillers with variable primary pumping
system. Even though the project is getting negative results in cooling category, there is a huge savings from pumps which is compensating for the negative in cooling energy consumption. Ultimately, the overall plant energy consumption (Cooling, heat rejection,
pumps) is lesser in proposed case than base case. I am surprised with the result as i believe for such a building, water cooled chillers work more efficiently. For more clarity, the results are given as below:</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Base case: Cooling: 14,26,659 KWH, Heat rejection: 1,23,357 KWH, Pumps: 426,506 KWH</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Proposed case: Cooling: 17,89,814 KWH, Heat rejection: 0 KWH, Pumps: 62,264 KWH</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">These are results are for default chiller curves in both the cases. If air cooled part load values are used, then cooling energy consumption further reduces
in proposed case. Then can it be concluded that air cooled with primary variable pumping system is a good alternative to use. </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Is this conclusion appropriate? Are the results correct? Please help.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style=""> </span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Regards,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="background:white;"><span style="">Rathnashree</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv4817213512MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white;"><span style=""><br clear="none">
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