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--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">I’d add over the past years (in the onebuilding archives), you can find more discussions and illustrations by searching for the term “donut.” For a time it was popular to call these situations donut hole zones! This illustration is from one such thread for a visual:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><img width="412" height="410" id="_x0000_i1029" src="cid:image002.png@01D0C478.FB5C1560"><span style="color:#002060"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">Further to Brian’s suggestion, my tendency is to deliberately “slice” my building footprint along the lines of some interior zones whose thermal interactions shouldn’t matter much (i.e. similar temperatures/exposures). In CAD processing, I’ll draw parallel lines to snap to in eQuest approximately 1-2 inches apart, for both my zone and perimeter references.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">If your zoning is fairly orthogonal, and/or you just forgot during CAD cleanup (been there!), you can save also “manually” define the necessary offset vertices by editing the X/Y coordinates to the left as you’re otherwise defining your footprint/zone vertices by snapping.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">The time-saving advantage to this approach overall is you can automate creation of the interior “donut” exterior surfaces (exposed to ambient conditions) and of course any windows involved. When done with wizards, a first step in detailed mode is to delete the resulting “sandwiched” walls along the donut “slice.”</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">Regarding “microclimates” as can occur with large atriums/courtyards: Jeff’s post does a good job of summarizing some of the limits to be aware of. Conditions leading to “microclimates” are a topic that sits squarely on/beyond the edge of today’s building simulation development, and eQuest/DOE-2 notably does not perform much of the thermal massing & CFD analysis that seems necessary to accurately simulate the hourly thermal characteristics for some such cases. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">There are many situations where an hourly simulation such as with eQuest/DOE-2 could really use a second weather file. These include dense cityscapes where direct solar loads are eliminated/magnified based on your neighbor’s glazing, semi-exposed exterior bazaars/shopping malls with lots of thermal mass to keep corridors cool, and unconditioned gymnasiums in Florida where I lost many pounds of water weight playing dodgeball!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">I don’t think there is any single software package that is today claiming to squarely and directly address all the variables of concern within the simulation (though I believe EnergyPlus and IES-VE are getting there, among other problem-specific tools), but it’s very healthy to recognize where the science of simulation is still actively growing so that you can best evaluate/temper your results when there are “known unknowns.”</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060">~Nick</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#002060">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><br></span><b><span style="color:#561782">Owner</span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#561782"> </span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><br></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1f497d"> 603 N Ferrel</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1f497d"> Olathe, KS 66061</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#1f497d"> office: 785.410.3317</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><span style="color:#002060"></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Daric Adair<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 21, 2015 3:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jeff Haberl; Ng, Jason; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Interior courtyards</p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Hello Jason [and all];</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Maybe I am overlooking an important detail here, but I think Jason’s ‘is it so simple’ question can be answered ‘yes’ with some minor clarifications. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Jeff detailed out some of the complications of this situation very well, but I am not sure we need to go that far with it. If this for a code compliance model or LEED performance model, the simplified approach is best. If we are truly attempting to understand this courtyard and the building interaction, or cross ventilation, and such, the Jeff is spot on.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">The way I would/have approach a situation such is two part. In Wizard Mode, draw the shell[s] all the way around the building. For zoning leave this area empty/don’t make a zone for it. If this is truly surrounded by a single zone, split this zone into two zones through this hole, some of each zone bordering this ‘hole’. This is necessary to actually create the ‘hole’. Then, in Detailed edit mode, you add/create your exterior walls/façade/windows/etc. in the ‘hole’ area. If you had to split a zone into two, take the interior wall that splits these two zone and make it/them an ‘air wall’.</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I have to use this approach on both smaller and larger ‘holes’ in buildings with no major issues. Just the time it takes to create the other exterior walls, which adds up on big models. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">I’d be interested to hear other’s thoughts or approaches.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Thanks,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:black;text-transform:uppercase">DARIC R. ADAIR</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:black;text-transform:uppercase"> PE, C.E.M.</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> <br></span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#566c11">Henderson Engineers, Inc. | </span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#566c11">Mechanical Engineer, Energy Analyst</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> <br></span><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;font-variant:small-caps;color:black">dir</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> 913 742 5530 <b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">tel</span></b> 913 742 5000 <b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">fax</span></b> 913 742 5001 <b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">tx id</span></b> #F-001236 <b><span style="font-variant:small-caps">email</span></b> <a href="mailto:daric.adair@hei-eng.com">daric.adair@hei-eng.com</a></span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> <a href="http://www.hei-eng.com/"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#566c11">www.hei-eng.com</span></b></a> <br></span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">Licensed in KS.</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><span style="color:#1f497d"></span></p></div><div style="border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:bfountain@greensim.com">bfountain@greensim.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 21, 2015 12:31 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'Ng, Jason'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Interior courtyards</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1f497d">One of the standard shapes in eQUEST DD wizard is a rectangular building with a courtyard. If you select this, eQUEST creates a “C” shape building with the ends of the C very close together and (ideally) set as adiabatic.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"><img border="0" width="770" height="574" id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image003.png@01D0C478.FB5C1560"><span style="color:#1f497d"></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1f497d">You can do something similar with your shell(s). Trace the outside of the footprint, then cross over at some logical point, trace the interior courtyard, then go back to the outside and finish the footprint. Be careful to put the adjacent vertices close together but not one atop the other or such that the footprint crosses itself. In the wizard screen 2, you can right click on a wall segment and set it to be adiabatic. You will want to do this for the walls that are within the footprint.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#1f497d">I hope this helps.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jeff Haberl [<a href="mailto:jhaberl@tamu.edu">mailto:jhaberl@tamu.edu</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 20, 2015 5:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> Ng, Jason; <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Interior courtyards</p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Hello Jason,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Great building to try to simulate. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">However, real courtyard buildings are very difficult to simulate accurately because, depending on climate, they have the potential to expose the building to (2) or more “weather files”, one for the exterior surfaces of the building and one for the “courtyard”. In addition, if there are any openings from the exterior through the building into the courtyard, then there can be significant cross ventilation, which further complicates things. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Finally, if the building is in an extreme climate (for example hot and dry), and if there is any vegetation in the courtyard or fountain, then you may also have significant evaporative cooling in the courtyard (i.e., wetting of the porous floor and walls) and in such cases you’ll need an industrial strength CFD program coupled with the building thermal simulation, that is capable of tracking air flow and moisture in and around the building and its courtyard…not for the faint of heart.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">If there is no interaction between the building and the courtyard, if you don’t have evaporative cooling and if you have some measured data, then one could develop an empirical or “inverse simulation” of the courtyard, split the building like a donut and “simulate” the weather condition inside the courtyard for the inner portion of the building and the normal weather file outside the building with the outside portions and then knit the two simulations together with adiabatic, mass-type thermal walls after iterating to converge the solutions. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">One additional difficult issue is that many of the traditional courtyard buildings have amounts of thermal mass that go way beyond the capabilities of today’s whole-building thermal simulation programs, which can require a rather long period to converge (i.e., weeks or months).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Finally, although there has been some previous work in this area, most creditable efforts attempt to resolve one of more of the above issues.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Jeff</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:blue">8=! 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=( 8=) 8=() 8=) 8=| 8=) :=') 8=) 8=?<br>Jeff S. Haberl, Ph.D.,P.E.inactive,FASHRAE,FIBPSA,......<a href="mailto:........jhaberl@tamu.edu">jhaberl@tamu.edu</a><br>Professor........................................................................Office Ph: 979-845-6507<br>Department of Architecture............................................Lab Ph:979-845-6065<br>Energy Systems Laboratory...........................................FAX: 979-862-2457<br>Texas A&M University...................................................77843-3581<br>College Station, Texas, USA, 77843..............................URL:<a href="http://www.esl.tamu.edu">www.esl.tamu.edu</a><br>8=/ 8=) :=) 8=) ;=) 8=) 8=() 8=) :=) 8=) 8=! 8=) 8=? 8=) 8=0</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ng, Jason<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 20, 2015 4:01 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Interior courtyards</p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">Of course, I forgot to attach my image……</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="width:100.0%;border-collapse:collapse"><tr><td width="100" style="width:75.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><img border="0" width="85" height="85" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image004.jpg@01D0C478.FB5C1560" alt="cid:image001.jpg@01D0C3C7.9449B0F0"> </span></p></td><td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#3f3f3f">Jason</span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#3f3f3f">Ng</span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7d7d7d">_ing. jr. M.Sc.A., LEED green associate</span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:black"></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#a5a5a5"><a href="mailto:jng@bpa.ca" title="Envoyer un courriel/Send email"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#a5a5a5">jng@bpa.ca</span></a></span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#a5a5a5"> | </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#a5a5a5"><a href="http://www.bpa.ca" target="_blank" title="www.bpa.ca"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#a5a5a5">www.bpa.ca</span></a></span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#a5a5a5"> | t: 5143833747x2813</span></p></td></tr></table><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#bfbfbf">Les informations contenues dans le courriel que vous venez de recevoir, y compris les pièces jointes, sont destinées à l’usage exclusif de la (ou des) personne(s) identifiée(s) comme destinataires et sont confidentielles. Si vous n’en êtes pas le destinataire, soyez avisé que tout usage en est interdit. Si vous avez reçu ce courriel par erreur, veuillez le retourner à l’expéditeur et le supprimer complètement de votre système informatique.</span><span lang="FR-CA"></span></p><p style="visibility:hidden"><span style="font-size:6.0pt">AT:2|</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#002060"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ng, Jason<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 20, 2015 3:57 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Interior courtyards</p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="color:black">Hello all,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="color:black"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">I have a particular building geometry that I am unsure of how to simulate. I know that you cannot simulate an exterior space that is completely surrounded by interior zones. In the past when I have come across an interior courtyard type of geometry I was able to conveniently split my shell in two parts with minimal effort with the split occurring along the edges of the interior courtyard. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">This time, however, my interior courtyard (which is actually more like a large light well than an interior courtyard) is relatively small compared to my building, but not small enough to ignore, and spans across three floors, including the interior parking garage in the basement. Before taking the time to split my shells like I did in the past, I was wondering if anyone has a more clever way of approaching this particular geometry?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">One option I thought of was to separate the spaces surrounding the courtyard on each floor into their own zones and simply adding appropriately sized external walls and fenestration to these zones in detailed mode, while simulating the courtyard itself as non-conditioned. Could it really be so simple?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black">The attached image is of the second floor of the building. The courtyard is in the red circle. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:black"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"> </span></p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" style="width:100.0%;border-collapse:collapse"><tr><td width="100" style="width:75.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black"><img border="0" width="85" height="85" id="_x0000_i1028" src="cid:image004.jpg@01D0C478.FB5C1560"> </span></p></td><td style="padding:0in 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#3f3f3f">Jason</span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:#3f3f3f">Ng</span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#7d7d7d">_ing. jr. M.Sc.A., LEED green associate</span></b><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black",sans-serif;color:black"></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#a5a5a5"><a href="mailto:jng@bpa.ca" title="Envoyer un courriel/Send email"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#a5a5a5">jng@bpa.ca</span></a></span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#a5a5a5"> | </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#a5a5a5"><a href="http://www.bpa.ca" target="_blank" title="www.bpa.ca"><span lang="EN-CA" style="color:#a5a5a5">www.bpa.ca</span></a></span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#a5a5a5"> | t: 5143833747x2813</span></p></td></tr></table><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#bfbfbf">Les informations contenues dans le courriel que vous venez de recevoir, y compris les pièces jointes, sont destinées à l’usage exclusif de la (ou des) personne(s) identifiée(s) comme destinataires et sont confidentielles. Si vous n’en êtes pas le destinataire, soyez avisé que tout usage en est interdit. Si vous avez reçu ce courriel par erreur, veuillez le retourner à l’expéditeur et le supprimer complètement de votre système informatique.</span><span lang="FR-CA"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR-CA" style="color:#002060"> </span></p></div></body></html>