<div dir="ltr">Chris you are right, the unit labels should have been W/cfm not kW. Thanks for the catch! <div><img src="cid:ii_14dd8f0fafad5932" alt="Inline image 2" width="523" height="64"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><b>Elizabeth Gillmor <font size="1">PE, LC, LEED AP</font></b><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:large;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><b><font color="#38761d" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">e n e r g e t i c s </font></b></span><b><font color="#38761d" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">consulting engineers, llc</font></b></div><div><font size="2" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" color="#666666"><a href="http://energetics-eng.com" target="_blank">energetics-eng.com</a></font></div><div><span style="font-size:small;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font color="#666666">c 303.619.0091</font></span><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Jones, Christopher <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com" target="_blank">Christopher.r.Jones@wspgroup.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Book","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Just checking but 0.365 kW/cfm seems pretty high. That is 356 W/cfm. The DOE2.2 default is 0.0006 kW/cfm, 0.6 W/cfm for the PSZ system<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Book","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><img width="108" height="43" src="cid:image001.png@01D0A2A1.FA0377B0" alt="cid:image003.png@01D09C46.E75BA0D0"></span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1c467a"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1c467a">Christopher Jones,</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">P.Eng.<i>
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</i></span><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Senior Engineer<b><u></u><u></u></b></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">WSP Canada Inc.<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.wspgroup.com/" target="_blank">www.wspgroup.com</a>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org" target="_blank">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Elizabeth Gillmor<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 09, 2015 10:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Omar ElRawy<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Indoor fan separation at ARI<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I seem to get this comment frequently so I have it all typed out as a stock LEED comment response. The advice you received is correct. You can use the following formulas for fan power and EIR:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">kW/cfm = BHP / 0.746 * Fan Motor Efficiency (<----from Appendix G)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">BHP = CFM * 0.0013 + Pressure Drop Adjustment</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The baseline EIR is then calculated with fan energy modeled separately, using the following formula (same as what eQuest uses in Wizard
mode):</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><img border="0" width="310" height="49" src="cid:image002.png@01D0A2A1.FA0377B0" alt="Inline image 1"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Where ARI Fan Power = fan power at rated ARI conditions (W/Btuh), and CAP = total cooling capacity (Btuh). At rated ARI conditions,
the supply fan is rated at 0.365 kW/cfm and 400 cfm/ton, such that:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><img border="0" width="465" height="62" src="cid:image003.png@01D0A2A1.FA0377B0" alt="Inline image 2"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">When normalizing the cooling capacity, the formula is:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><img border="0" width="501" height="77" src="cid:image004.png@01D0A2A1.FA0377B0" alt="Inline image 3"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">When applied to a baseline EER=9.5, the resulting EIR=0.3051. The eQuest wizard will also do this for you correctly, but usually
at LEED submittal time we are all well past the wizard phase, so the formulas above are handy to have. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Good luck!</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Elizabeth</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Elizabeth Gillmor </b><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt">PE, LC, LEED AP</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#38761d;background:white">e n e r g e t i c s </span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#38761d">consulting engineers, llc</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#666666;background:white"><a href="http://energetics-eng.com" target="_blank">energetics-eng.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#666666;background:white">c <a href="tel:303.619.0091" value="+13036190091" target="_blank">303.619.0091</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Omar ElRawy <<a href="mailto:omaroelrawy@gmail.com" target="_blank">omaroelrawy@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Dear all,</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> I've got the following reply for a psz system in the baseline case during preliminary LEED design submittal:</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">"</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#38761d">N</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#38761d">ote
that section G3.1.2.1 requires that where efficiency ratings, such as EER and COP, include fan energy, the descriptor shall be broken down into its components so that supply fan energy can be modeled separately. Because the efficiency ratings are calculated
at ARI-rated conditions, the fans should also be broken out at ARI-rated conditions. Most simulation software programs have the capability to perform this step automatically. Provide documentation showing that this calculation has been performed by the software
automatically or provide calculations consistent with the ASHRAE 90.1-2007 User’s Manual showing that the calculation has been performed at ARI-rated conditions</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">."</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">What I did is that I referred to eQuest library, and documented the following paragraph to the reviewer:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">"</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#783f04">COOLING-EIR:<br>
The Electric Input Ratio (EIR), or 1/(Coefficient of Performance), for the cooling unit at ARI rated conditions..... This EIR is at ARI rated conditions, i.e., without correction for different temperature or part load. Note: If you include fan electric energy
consumption in your value of COOLING-EIR, then you should set SUPPLY-KW/FLOW to zero. Otherwise, the supply fan electrical energy will be double counted........ Imbedding the fan energy into the COOLING-EIR is valid only if the fan is constant volume and INDOOR-FAN-MODE
= INTERMITTENT; i.e. the fan cycles on/off with the compressor. If the fan runs continuously during occupied hours, or the fan is variable volume, then the fan energy cannot be included in the COOLING-EIR (or HEATING-EIR).</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">"</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">And I did set fan kw/cfm to zero, intermittent, and constant volume, but I've got the SV-A report reporting zero kw power demand, and zero fan (kw) for the system and its zones.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<u><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Then I got an advice stating that:</span></u><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">"You should do what the reviewer mentions, divide the indoor fan from the efficiency rating at ARI-rated conditions and model it separately; this way you will be able to report the appropriate fan power"</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">My question is:<b> where do I separately input the indoor fan power (kw), and what value should it be?, knowing that this is a baseline case that do not refer to an actual design.</b></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;vertical-align:baseline;outline:0px;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222">Omar ElRawy, LEED AP BD+C</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222">LEED Project Manager<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222">EA Sustainable Building Consultants<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222"><a href="http://www.ea-buildingconsultants.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ea-buildingconsultants.com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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