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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Book","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I think the reviewer is daft. The efficiencies listed in Section 6 are the prescriptive requirements that the baseline model is to employ. There
is nothing in Section 6 or Appendix G stating that the average seasonal efficiency of a boiler is to be equal to its full load efficiency. Unless there is a recent CIR from the USGBC then the reviewer needs to go back to school.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Franklin Gothic Book","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1C467A;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Christopher Jones</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1C467A;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">,</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">P.Eng.</span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
<br>
</span></i><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Tel: 416.644.4226 • Toll Free: 1.888.425.7255 x 527</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> Equest-users [mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nicholas Caton<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS UI Gothic","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">冷面寒</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"PMingLiU","serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">枪</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">;
Julien Marrec<br>
<b>Cc:</b> equest-users@lists.onebuilding<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS UI Gothic","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">回复：</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">RE: Reply</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"MS UI Gothic","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">：</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yeah the divergence in PS-C output results from the nominal HIR input are definitely a combination of cycling energies and the library curve being “non-flat.”
The specific direction to prescribe part load performance by modifying the curve is what’s really irking me here (and the notion/implication that every other boiler using library curves & default warmup/standby inputs is wrong for LEED).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In any case, I do appreciate the suggestion – when I get around to addressing that model’s commentary I will check up on whether the baseline boilers are oversized
and will plan to include that review in addressing the comment. That would definitely be contributing to the “problem” if it were the case!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782">Owner</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br>
office: 785.410.3317</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> David Eldridge [mailto:<a href="mailto:DEldridge@grummanbutkus.com">DEldridge@grummanbutkus.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 8:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton<br>
<b>Cc:</b> </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">赵永青</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">; Julien Marrec;
<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Equest-users] Reply</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The referenced 90.1 method of testing for boiler efficiency should be the guide. The value is not presented as an "IPLV" type of weighted efficiency.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The reviewer might have a question if your baseline boiler is cycling a lot, did the Appendix G sizing instructions provide an oversized boiler?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">DSE Mobile<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Nicholas Caton [mailto:<a href="mailto:ncaton@catonenergy.com">ncaton@catonenergy.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 8:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">冷面寒枪</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">; Julien Marrec<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">回复：</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">RE: [Equest-users] Reply</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’m happy you are arriving at the same result, however to be clear I do not think the reviewer is correct to assert the prescribed efficiency is anything other
than the full-load efficiency.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Follow the cited Test Procedure CFR 431 led me to:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/10/431.86">https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/10/431.86</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ҥ 431.86 (c) (3) (ii) Thermal Efficiency. Use the calculation procedure for the thermal efficiency test specified in Section 11.1
of the HI BTS-2000, Rev 06.07 (incorporated by reference, see§ 431.85).”</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I then found the referenced HI standard here (PDF link):
<a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Flaw.resource.org%2Fpub%2Fus%2Fcfr%2Fibr%2F004%2Fhi.BTS-2000.2007.pdf&ei=R-dhVZr3FoffoASKxYC4Bw&usg=AFQjCNGb2HahzcO_Q-BftBzCugY5sPtifg&sig2=k1fojL9GcpjnN6T2fdzOug">
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Flaw.resource.org%2Fpub%2Fus%2Fcfr%2Fibr%2F004%2Fhi.BTS-2000.2007.pdf&ei=R-dhVZr3FoffoASKxYC4Bw&usg=AFQjCNGb2HahzcO_Q-BftBzCugY5sPtifg&sig2=k1fojL9GcpjnN6T2fdzOug</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In that standard, section 5 reads:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">5.0 TYPES OF TESTS</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">5.1
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Thermal Efficiency Test</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Shall consist of a test point conducted at 100% ± 2% of the nameplate boiler input. The test shall</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">yield a complete accounting of the energy input in terms of output and losses.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">5.2
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Combustion Efficiency Test</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Shall consist of a test point conducted at 100% ± 2% of the input to the boiler and shall yield an</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">accounting of energy input in terms of products of combustion only.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">From this, it is clear Et and Ec as prescribed by 90.1 are only the efficiencies as measured at full load. The test procedures following under section 9 deliberately
exclude the effects of warmup/standby (equipment is made to warm up and arrive at the mandated operating conditions prior to measurements).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Section 11.1 of the standard prescribes all the calculations required, including Et = 100*Q</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">OUT</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
/ Q</span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">IN</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> , however the preceding sections makes clear we are in no way standardizing part
load performance or warmup/standby performance.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Rounding back to 90.1… section 6.4.1.1 further cements the notion (“packaged boilers” fall under 1992 EPACT):</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="398" height="337" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D096CE.F8117F30"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">All this reinforces the point that 90.1 simply does not prescribe part load performance for baseline boilers. To perform a simulation in compliance with Appendix
G the onus is upon the energy modeler to make reasonable, defensible assumptions on that front. I don’t see how forcing full-load efficiencies at all part-load conditions and removing standby/startup operation energies is more reasonable or reflects reality
better than the defaults. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If this is a new GBCI position they plan to hard-line on, then I would speculate it would be equally fair (albeit far more unrealistic for condensing cases)
to give your proposed boilers the same treatment… extra work for a step backwards from reality…?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thoughts?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">~Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">NICK CATON, P.E.</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782">Owner</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782">Caton Energy Consulting</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> 1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br>
office: 785.410.3317</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#561782"><a href="www.catonenergy.com"><span style="color:#561782">www.catonenergy.com</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">冷面寒枪</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> [<a href="mailto:zhaoyongqing1987@qq.com">mailto:zhaoyongqing1987@qq.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 7:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Caton; Julien Marrec<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> </span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">回复：</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">RE: [Equest-users] Reply</span><span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi,Nick</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Than you for your insight!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> Except default curve and start up time, Min-Ratio also will result in discrepancy between annual equivalent HIR and nominal HIR. After I revised curve ,set start-time
and Min-Ratio to 0,and hourly report and PS-C report indicate that the annual equivalent HIR is accord with nominal HIR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow","sans-serif";color:#909090">------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#3366FF">Yongqing Zhao</span></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#006600">Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</span></strong><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#006600"><br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#3366FF">NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>
Telephone:13574805636</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#3366FF"><a href="mailto:Email%3Azhaoyongqing1987@126.com">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@126.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow","sans-serif"">------------------ </span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">原始</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">邮</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">件</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow","sans-serif""> ------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">发</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "Nicholas
Caton";<<a href="mailto:ncaton@catonenergy.com">ncaton@catonenergy.com</a>>;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">发</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">送</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">时间</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> 2015</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">年</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">5</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">月</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">24</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">日</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">(</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">星期天</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">)
</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">晚上</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">9:53</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">收件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">赵</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">永青</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">"<<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>>;
"Julien Marrec"<<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>>;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">抄送</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a>"<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">主</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">题</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> RE:
[Equest-users] Reply</span><span lang="JA" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">：</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I received some similar review language very recently suggesting 80% efficiency is expected at all/most part load conditions for the baseline boiler…. Similar context in that case with the boiler rarely operating near full load.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">My comment has other issues that would cloud the topic at-hand, but here is truncated version:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">“…Furthermore, the average boiler efficiencies in the Baseline PS-C output reports, calculated by dividing the boiler energy consumption by the annual boiler heating energy generated was… [approximately 5% lower
than the nominal efficiency input & documented]. Revise the baseline boiler efficiency to 80% and revise the boiler curve for the Baseline case as necessary to have an average efficiency that is near 80%. Provide updated PS-C reports for the Baseline confirming
that the average baseline efficiency is near 80%.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is the first time I have run into commentary checking up on PS-C’s output at all, and I’m using the same library curves as always for typical baseline boilers.
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I believe the PS-C discrepancy is explained both by the non-flat library curve and by the boiler’s default start-up loads, in combination.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here is the default library curve – it is (roughly, but not quite) linear:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="533" height="187" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image002.png@01D096CE.F8117F30"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="468" height="264" id="Picture_x0020_4" src="cid:image003.png@01D096CE.F8117F30"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">[For those unfamiliar, the Y-axis is a unitless multiplier] <o:p>
</o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">If I’m not mistaken, this curve serves double-duty: it simultaneously applies the hourly PLR to the full capacity (as either input or auto-sized) and also accounts for increased HIR (lower efficiency) as the PLR drops. My understanding
in equation form:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Energy Consumed (for the hour) = (Boiler full capacity as input/autosized) * (Boiler nominal HIR input @ full load) * HIRf(PLR)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If all of that is true, a perfectly “flat efficiency” curve, returning your nominal input HIR at all efficiencies, would therefore be Z = X. That’s plotted above for reference with a light/thin line.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Even with such a “flat efficiency” curve applied to a test-case, PS-C’s outputs still suggest an annual equivalent HIR higher than the nominal input. Zeroing out the startup/standby inputs as well is required to get PS-C to report your
nominal HIR = annual fuel / annual load:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img border="0" width="585" height="179" id="Picture_x0020_5" src="cid:image004.png@01D096CE.F8117F30"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think the correct response (which perhaps I’ve mostly composed above) is to demonstrate the causes (library curve shape, startup/standby defaults), and to assert these are all appropriately applied to the baseline boiler, though
<u>none of this is regulated by 90.1</u> to the best of my knowledge so it might be relatively shaky territory. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would wager 90% of all eQuest baseline boilers submitted to GBCI to date probably don’t mess with the library curves or standby/startup inputs, but that’s pure speculation on my part.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Has anybody ever tried to explain/justify the default boiler curve and default startup/standby inputs? Do we know where those defaults come from?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">~Nick<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>NICK CATON, P.E.</b><br>
<b>Owner</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Caton Energy Consulting</b><br>
1150 N. 192<sup>nd</sup> St., #4-202<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Shoreline, WA 98133<br>
office: 785.410.3317<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#561782"><a href="http://www.catonenergy.com">www.catonenergy.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Equest-users [mailto:<a href="mailto:equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users-bounces@lists.onebuilding.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>???<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 24, 2015 5:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Julien Marrec<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Equest-users] Reply<span lang="ZH-CN" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:SimSun">：</span> The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi,<span class="grn">Julien </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I understand his meaning is keep a constant efficiency and I know the flat efficiency in equest is a curve that is y=x, but I can't confirm if a constant efficiency is Ashrae 90.1-2007's original intent.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>Yongqing Zhao</strong><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</strong><b><br>
</b>NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>
Telephone:13574805636<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:Email%3Azhaoyongqing1987@126.com">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@126.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">------------------ <span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">原始</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">邮</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">件</span> ------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">发</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "Julien
Marrec";<<a href="mailto:julien.marrec@gmail.com">julien.marrec@gmail.com</a>>;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">发</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">送</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">时间</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> 2015</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">年</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">5</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">月</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">24</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">日</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">(</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">星期天</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">)
</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">晚上</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">8:19</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">收件人</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">赵</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">永青</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt">"<<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>>;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">抄送</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> "<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding">equest-users@lists.onebuilding</a>"<<a href="mailto:equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org">equest-users@lists.onebuilding.org</a>>;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#EFEFEF"><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">主</span></b><b><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">题</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">:</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"> Re:
[Equest-users] The problem of minimum equipment efficiency requirement of Ashrae 90.1-2007</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hey,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">He's saying that you need to make sure that the curve boiler-fPLR gives you a constant efficiency. As far as I remember, the default atmospheric curve from equest is like this.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Don't be confused by "flat". A flat efficiency curve is when you plot efficiency=f(PLR). In equest, it should be a curve that is y=x<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Look at the curve you used.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Julien<o:p></o:p></p>
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Envoyé de mon iPhone<o:p></o:p></p>
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Le 24 mai 2015 à 11:27, "<span lang="JA" style="font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei","sans-serif";mso-fareast-language:JA">赵</span><span lang="JA" style="font-family:"MS Mincho";mso-fareast-language:JA">永青</span>" <<a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a>>
a écrit :<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I get the energy model comments from LEED reviewer as following:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The narrative response indicates that the Baseline boiler has been modeled utilizing operating performance curves and a boiler HIR of 1.25. However, since the boiler operation HIR is based on the performance curves, the HIR is less than
1.25 in the part-load condition, which is inappropriate. Revise the Baseline boilers to include a flat efficiency of 80% for all part-loads. Provide eQuest input files or screen shots verifying the boiler efficiency has been modeled as required.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <<a href="mailto:545E22AD@FA528147.9F996155">545E22AD@FA528147.9F996155</a>><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">However, I can not understand it very much. The minimum equipment efficiency requirement(80 % Et) of Ashrae 90.1-2007 should be base on full load condition.Why the LEED reviewer raise such a question?Any insight is appreciate!!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">------------------<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>Yongqing Zhao</strong><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><strong>Changsha Green Building & Energy Saving Technology CO.,LTD</strong><b><br>
</b>NO.438,Shaoshan Road,Changsha,Hunan,China<br>
Telephone:13574805636<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Email:zhaoyongqing1987@<a href="http://126.com">126.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <a href="mailto:503271081@qq.com">503271081@qq.com</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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